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Thread: H17 Indices

  1. #1


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    H17 Indices

    I know about 40 h17 indices and would like to add more to my book. I'm not concerned about negative TCs Indices that much because I am wonging out at TC -1.

    Here's my list, feel free to add some.

    Ins.-----+3

    HARDS
    16vA>>>+3
    16vT>>>0
    16v9>>>+4
    15vA>>>+5
    15vT>>>+4
    13v2>>>-1
    12v4>>>0
    12v3>>>+1
    12v2>>>+3
    11vA>>>-1
    10vA>>+3
    10vT>>+4
    9v7>>>+3
    9v3>>>-1
    9v2>>>+1
    8v6>>>+2
    8v5>>>+4
    8v4>>>+6

    SOFTS
    A8v6>>>0
    A8v5>>>+1
    A8v4>>>+3
    A8v3>>>+5
    A7v2>>>0
    A6v2>>>+1
    A5v3>>>+4
    A3v4>>>+2
    A2v5>>>0
    A2v4>>>+3

    SPLITS
    TTv6>>>+4
    TTv5>>>+5
    TTv4>>>+6
    99vA>>>+2
    99v7>>>+3
    77v8>>>+4
    44v4>>>+3 ( DD if TC>+6 )
    33v8>>>+5
    33v2>>>0
    22v8>>>+5

    *feel free to correct me if a couple indices are wrong

    Edit: 8D h17 DOA split 3 times no RSA Hi Lo half deck resolution
    Last edited by apkevy; 06-30-2015 at 03:33 PM.

  2. #2
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    11 v A @ +1, not -1

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    apkevy,

    Without knowing how many decks you are considering;
    and if there are doubling restrictions or other special
    considerations -- it is not possible to assist you.

  4. #4


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
    11 v A @ +1, not -1
    Doubling down 11vA is a basic strategy play on H17, why would I only DD when TC>+1 ? It would make more sense to me to always DD unless the shoe is poor in tens. Maybe I'm wrong.
    I would like someone to confirm.

    Edit: I think S17 is @ +1, maybe you were reffering to that one.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Bodarc's Avatar
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    Index plays tell you when to deviate from basic strategy, so your ev is a little higher by not doubling down until you reach your index. Basic strategy players do not count so that is the difference.
    Play within your bankroll, pick your games with care and learn everything you can about the game. The winning will come. It has to. It's in the cards. -- Bryce Carlson

  6. #6


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post
    apkevy,

    Without knowing how many decks you are considering;
    and if there are doubling restrictions or other special
    considerations -- it is not possible to assist you.
    My bad. I edited the OP. Thanks for your assistance.

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodarc View Post
    Index plays tell you when to deviate from basic strategy, so your ev is a little higher by not doubling down until you reach your index. Basic strategy players do not count so that is the difference.
    I know that TC=0 (dis)advantage is not the same as BS (dis)advantage but why would the BS tell me to DD on 11vA if in reality it would be +EV to hit instead ? Bs strategy is based on top of deck probabilities while TC=1 probabilities are based on a range of TC between [1;2[, since TC is floored, which is far away from BS strategy. If the index play of 11vA is really +1, why would BS tell me to DD ? I'm confused..

  8. #8


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    Cursory look appears that your indices may be a mix from seperate sources? Also, do you use any risk averse indexes?

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Cursory look appears that your indices may be a mix from seperate sources? Also, do you use any risk averse indexes?
    I found that chart online. I know the difference in the purpose between risk averse/EV max. indices but I don't know how to recognise one or another..

    Edit: I noticed the 16vs9 index play in my chart is +4 while on Don Ill18 it shows +5. Could this be explained by the possibility that my +4 index play is a EV max. indice while Don's +5 is a RA indice? Or maybe my +4 is wrong, I'd rather trust Don's.
    Last edited by apkevy; 06-30-2015 at 03:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by apkevy View Post
    Could this be explained by the possibility that my +4 index play is a EV max. indice while Don's +5 is a RA indice?
    I don't think so. Usually RA indices only come into play when you are putting more money out like a double or split or even insurance.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by apkevy View Post
    Or maybe my +4 is wrong, I'd rather trust Don's.
    Probably the method of determining TC or you are wrong. I think Don's are floored TC estimations but I am not sure how his deck estimations are done.

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    Senior Member Bodarc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apkevy View Post
    If the index play of 11vA is really +1, why would BS tell me to DD ? I'm confused..
    I don't know the math or simulations behind it. I don't question it since basic strategy and indices have been run for years. I just accept it and play it that way.
    Play within your bankroll, pick your games with care and learn everything you can about the game. The winning will come. It has to. It's in the cards. -- Bryce Carlson

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by apkevy View Post
    I found that chart online. I know the difference in the purpose between risk averse/EV max. indices but I don't know how to recognise one or another..

    Your indexes listed are not risk averse. By definition, index numbers are a benchmark whereby use of the number displayed catches in excess of 50% of the expected value. So, for the sake of argument, splitting 10v 6 becomes a long term winner at plus 4, but only captures, for the sake of argument, 52% of the expected value. Each increase in true count increases your percentage of the total expected value, so, again for the sake of argument, not splitting until plus 7 would capture 70% of the expected value. Minutely less profitable and at the same time, substantially reduces variance. A favorite of mine is 8(not 4,4) v6, which should show positive expectation at plus 1. It's so frequent a hand that by doubling or not doubling so close to index, either way is a dead giveaway. By reserving a double till plus 3, the play is far more infrequent, and at the same time, captures most of the value.

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