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Thread: For Any Pros/Semi-Pros Out There

  1. #1


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    For Any Pros/Semi-Pros Out There

    What do you do with your time away from the tables? Everyone I've talked to on the subject says that it's very difficult to get more than, say, 20 hours in per week relatively safely from a heat perspective.

    1) Do you find this to be accurate, or is this figure just assuming you stick to local casinos?

    2) If it is a fairly accurate figure, what do you do with the rest of your time? Scout other opportunities? Take on a side-job (if so, what kind of job? Obviously flexibility is a must there)? Travel to new spots? Look for other investments? Life of leisure?

    Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    Senior Member blackjackomaha's Avatar
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    I think your 20 hours/week figure is highly dependent on the number of casinos in your area. When I was primarily hitting up local casinos, I was averaging between 20-30 hours of play, with up to 10 additional hours scouting. This was in addition to my normal job, which offers limited flex-time options so I can adjust my schedule within reason (40-50 hours/week). This would not have been possible without my wife's support, and she joined me most of the time at the tables.

    In the last few years, I've transitioned away from this type of play. My current position does not have the same level of flexibility, but on the flip side, it pays much better than my previous position. Due to past success at the tables and not being aware of my surroundings, I also have trouble playing in my local casinos, so I travel 4-6 days per month with a revamped game plan (mostly driving, occasional flying). I also play higher EV opportunities, so the lower number of hours haven't tremendously affected my total monthly EV. The 4-6 days per month are sometimes entirely spent scouting, but there are plenty of times I can get 50-60% of the time playing an opportunity. I've teamed up with 3 other players, so it provides more creativity when playing/scouting.

    I spent the majority of my time focusing on my career, since I only intended to AP part-time. If you do not intend on being a full-time player, I highly suggest you make your career the primary focus. If you do that, I think 20 or so hours of play with the remainder of the time bettering yourself (continued education, learning, etc), hanging with friends, or taking on hobbies will keep you plenty busy. If you're intention is to AP full-time, some of the other forum members would be able to provide better advice.

    Always continue improving your AP skills and never stop investing in yourself. Good luck!
    You don't score, until you SCORE!

  3. #3
    Senior Member Jabberwocky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackjackomaha View Post
    I think your 20 hours/week figure is highly dependent on the number of casinos in your area. When I was primarily hitting up local casinos, I was averaging between 20-30 hours of play, with up to 10 additional hours scouting. This was in addition to my normal job, which offers limited flex-time options so I can adjust my schedule within reason (40-50 hours/week). This would not have been possible without my wife's support, and she joined me most of the time at the tables.

    In the last few years, I've transitioned away from this type of play. My current position does not have the same level of flexibility, but on the flip side, it pays much better than my previous position. Due to past success at the tables and not being aware of my surroundings, I also have trouble playing in my local casinos, so I travel 4-6 days per month with a revamped game plan (mostly driving, occasional flying). I also play higher EV opportunities, so the lower number of hours haven't tremendously affected my total monthly EV. The 4-6 days per month are sometimes entirely spent scouting, but there are plenty of times I can get 50-60% of the time playing an opportunity. I've teamed up with 3 other players, so it provides more creativity when playing/scouting.

    I spent the majority of my time focusing on my career, since I only intended to AP part-time. If you do not intend on being a full-time player, I highly suggest you make your career the primary focus. If you do that, I think 20 or so hours of play with the remainder of the time bettering yourself (continued education, learning, etc), hanging with friends, or taking on hobbies will keep you plenty busy. If you're intention is to AP full-time, some of the other forum members would be able to provide better advice.

    Always continue improving your AP skills and never stop investing in yourself. Good luck!
    If you are a full time player, you are following the course of Kevin Blackwood. That's what I do. Playing the best games with the best conditions while shunning the mediocrity. Sleep with the best-trash the rest.

  4. #4


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    Quote Originally Posted by houyi View Post
    1) Do you find this to be accurate, or is this figure just assuming you stick to local casinos?
    Id say I qualify as "semi-pro." Agree with bjo, "It depends." I average WAY less than that. I didn't even get 200 hours in all year in the last year so I never really approach 20/week.

    Quote Originally Posted by houyi View Post
    2) If it is a fairly accurate figure, what do you do with the rest of your time? Scout other opportunities? Take on a side-job (if so, what kind of job? Obviously flexibility is a must there)? Travel to new spots? Look for other investments? Life of leisure?
    If I am waiting for the next shift, I'll see a movie or golf or try to nap or get some "side work" done. My "side job" is real estate now, which I think is a great fit. I sell houses to my friends/relatives which is easy, fun and good money. My broker is a friend and has nearly zero expectations or oversight - very flexible. I invest in/flip houses ( which also takes a lot of scounting) and do some land-lording. Real estate and AP fit together nicely imo.

  5. #5


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    There needs to be a better definition of semi-pro. A full pro needs the money he wins to meet his living expenses so my definition of a semi pro is someone who earns some living expenses from his AP pursuits.

    There re are others, like me, who do play a lot but AP earnings are extra, that is, we do not play to earn money to meet our living expenses. I work 40 hours a week, play 1-2 hours daily and another 5 on the weekend. With driving time included, I spend 20 hours a week on BJ and then 2-3 trips of 2-5 days where I play 8 hours a day.

    in local casinos I play rated and without heat (as they know of my full time employment) and I established a losing record ( rat holing, getting their attention when losing etc.).

  6. #6


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    Quote Originally Posted by houyi View Post
    What do you do with your time away from the tables? Everyone I've talked to on the subject says that it's very difficult to get more than, say, 20 hours in per week relatively safely from a heat perspective.

    1) Do you find this to be accurate, or is this figure just assuming you stick to local casinos?

    2) If it is a fairly accurate figure, what do you do with the rest of your time? Scout other opportunities? Take on a side-job (if so, what kind of job? Obviously flexibility is a must there)? Travel to new spots? Look for other investments? Life of leisure?

    Thanks in advance.
    I think I qualify as a full on professional for this one, so I"ll add in a few cents here and there.

    1. No. Like others have said, it largely depends on a number of factors. How many local casinos do you have? Are you willing to put in time? Do you have beatable games at those casinos? Do you have "other" AP tools to work with than APBJ?

    2 In the average week I'll "work" roughly 70 hours per week, split up between 7 casinos over 5 days. In the average "day" I'll spend about 6 hours playing at the table, 4 hours on "other" AP stuff, roughly 2 hours driving between locations, and another 2 hours scouting or "waiting".

    The two days I'll take off per week to "relax" are largely spent grocery shopping, doing dishes, laundry, etc.

    Once a month I make it a concerted effort to take a 3-4 day "trip" out of my local area and explore new places to play and scout out. In large part this is due to "other" AP plays, but the bulk of APBJ is served here scouting as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    There needs to be a better definition of semi-pro. A full pro needs the money he wins to meet his living expenses so my definition of a semi pro is someone who earns some living expenses from his AP pursuits.

    There re are others, like me, who do play a lot but AP earnings are extra, that is, we do not play to earn money to meet our living expenses. I work 40 hours a week, play 1-2 hours daily and another 5 on the weekend. With driving time included, I spend 20 hours a week on BJ and then 2-3 trips of 2-5 days where I play 8 hours a day.

    in local casinos I play rated and without heat (as they know of my full time employment) and I established a losing record ( rat holing, getting their attention when losing etc.).
    I tend to look at the definitions like this.

    Pro: Someone who lives, eats, breathes AP and spends most of their waking hours involved in the AP business
    Semi-Pro: Someone who can't commit to the hours of a Pro, but otherwise has the same skillset.

    IMO, most people fall under the "Semi-Pro" label due to children, marriage, careers, etc.

  7. #7


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    I bet sports in my time away from casinos. It took me a while to get to where I was winning but it's definitely worth it. Also, it can be done anywhere.

  8. #8


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    [IMG]http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/03/375706c4d0e1624698cee0ac39adcb53.jpg[/IMG
    I play at home with all the local players late at night!

  9. #9


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    I don't think I've posted before, I usually lurk but I figured I'd chime in here.

    I started playing full time late last year, since I have averaged 60 odd hours a week average table time. Not counting travel time at all in that figure. I rarely do anything but "work" at playing cards. It is extremely time consuming for me, especially the traveling. On a side note, I have only been backed off once since turning "pro"

    Hope you find this interesting,
    Cheers!

  10. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamn View Post
    I don't think I've posted before, I usually lurk but I figured I'd chime in here.

    I started playing full time late last year, since I have averaged 60 odd hours a week average table time. Not counting travel time at all in that figure. I rarely do anything but "work" at playing cards. It is extremely time consuming for me, especially the traveling. On a side note, I have only been backed off once since turning "pro"

    Hope you find this interesting,
    Cheers!
    Tamn, not many nuggets of wisdom in this one.

    Why did you go full time? Would be interested to know how you are playing 60 hours per week and not getting backed off. Cover? Advice?

    I assume you are winning, what area of the US are you playing , midwest, Vegas, northeast, etc. Bet sizes? Games?

    If not willing to share, then OK, just suggest you put back at least as much as you got lurking.

    Regards
    Luck is nothing more than probability taken personally!

  11. #11


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    On Stealth's note, Are there any full time folks not betting Blacks? Could one be a full time pro with a max bet under $400 ( say 1x$300 or 2x$200). I would think one would have to play too many hours to make even a decent living out of it.

    I suppose any unemployed person whose only source of income is $3-400 a week playing reds could also be called a full time pro.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    Are there any full time folks not betting Blacks? Could one be a full time pro with a max bet under $400 ( say 1x$300 or 2x$200). I would think one would have to play too many hours to make even a decent living out of it.
    I am definitely in that 'range'. I don't play a set spread or top bet like a lot of players do. My spread and top bet varies by casino, according to what I determine or think the tolerance or comfort level is or will be. So my top wager varies from as low as $150 or $175 (staying below $200), to as high as $800 on a crowded weekend or holiday night at a bigger casino that takes action well.

    But out of that 'range' of top bets, I don't know what my average or median top wager is, but in past years, my most common top wager was right around $400, staying just below the important $500 threshold. In the last year or so, my regular rotation has shifted a little away from strip places and towards smaller local type casinos that median or average top wager has gone down. My most common top wager is now less than $400. Probably the single most common top wager I use is $300.

    I make up the difference in EV by focusing on getting more high count or max bet opportunities in the same period of time, by tracking multiple tables and aggressively wonging (mostly out) and not just sitting there playing through negative or neutral situations.

  13. #13


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    KJ, I doubt anyone else living outside of Las Vegas could win as much as you do while limiting your max bet to $300-$400. Aggressively wonging out is difficult when a casino has just 2-3 tables of 6 decks and 1-2 tables of DD because there is no other casino within 45 minutes. What I admire most is the ability to count down multiple tables since I can't even do two, overwhelmed as I am with my own hand, keeping the running count, converting to TC and calculating next bet while looking out for heat.

    how many hours a week do you do in BJ related activity? Can't imagine averaging $50k plus while keeping a max bet under $300.

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