CTR confusion

**Orangechip2** · 05-15-2015, 06:56 PM

After reading an article pertaining to a Kansas City Casino I feel as if I may be off to a bad start to a potential very soon pro AP career.

**Norm** · 05-16-2015, 03:14 AM

CTRs have nothing to do with the IRS. There is nothing wrong with leaving a U.S. casino without cashing-in chips. What you need to avoid is cashing-in over $10,000 in chips in multiple transactions in a 24 hour period at the same casino to avoid a CTR.

**bigplayer** · 05-16-2015, 05:54 AM

Charges were dropped. Cashing out only partial amounts of your daily win in order to maintain a certain chip inventory is not a crime. The casino, Ameristar in KC, knew full well who the player was and never bothered to ask him for his SSN. The player in question never cashed more than $10K in a single business day. The casino was simply angry he had beaten them out of a significant amount of money and no matter what they did he continued to beat them and refused to quit playing.

**Nyne** · 05-16-2015, 06:57 AM

For Bob Nersesian's take, check out this podcast, starting at 7:40.

http://www.slot-machine-resource.com/podcasts/ners8.mp3

To read the law yourself, go here.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5324

**Orangechip2** · 05-16-2015, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by Norm

CTRs have nothing to do with the IRS. There is nothing wrong with leaving a U.S. casino without cashing-in chips. What you need to avoid is cashing-in over $10,000 in chips in multiple transactions in a 24 hour period at the same casino to avoid a CTR.

CTR has nothing to do with the IRS ? I thought MTLs had nothing to do with the IRS. To my understanding MTLs are kept in house for casino records only, unless the IRS requests then as part of an investigation. However, CTRs are sent to the IRS immediately, because of bank secrecy acts and other things that casinos must comply with.

Correct me if I'm wrong .

**Orangechip2** · 05-16-2015, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by Nyne

For Bob Nersesian's take, check out this podcast, starting at 7:40.

http://www.slot-machine-resource.com/podcasts/ners8.mp3

To read the law yourself, go here.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5324

Thanks Nyne.

**Orangechip2** · 05-16-2015, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by bigplayer

Charges were dropped. Cashing out only partial amounts of your daily win in order to maintain a certain chip inventory is not a crime. The casino, Ameristar in KC, knew full well who the player was and never bothered to ask him for his SSN. The player in question never cashed more than $10K in a single business day. The casino was simply angry he had beaten them out of a significant amount of money and no matter what they did he continued to beat them and refused to quit playing.

I tried searching the case, but couldn't find an outcome . Good to know that it is not illegal to walk w/ chips because you have aspirations of starting a nice size chip inventory roll.

As always, thanks BP.

**Norm** · 05-16-2015, 08:27 AM

CTRs are sent to FinCEN, not the IRS. The IRS can get access to them just as they can get access to all kinds of financial info when they have a need. But, they don't regularly look at them.

**Nyne** · 05-16-2015, 08:31 AM

FinCEN is the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, which is part of the US Department of the Treasury.

**Norm** · 05-16-2015, 08:55 AM

As are rather a large number of organizations.

The point is that CTRs are were not created for tax purposes and the IRS doesn't match up all CTRs with tax returns.

**tiny** · 05-18-2015, 12:52 AM

I was actually back roomed by gaming this year for this same issue. My partner and I won a decent amount one night and decided to keep our chips (partially because we don't want to give our names up and because we were planning on playing all weekend). I cashed a total of ~$5k over three days and was detained for "structuring" and "avoiding taxes (????)" given the same line "well you cashed and didn't play today!" as if that is somehow a crime. This is a casino that cannot kick out advantage players so I'm pretty sure they were upset about the win and just looking for reasons to 86 us even if their allegations are completely inane and baseless. Nothing came of it and we even spoke to a lawyer that confirmed what we already knew -- that no charges would hold up in court for the exact same reasons as you stated in your original post. Just typical bullshit harassment by sweaty casinos.

Legally, you're doing nothing wrong however, it may be suspicious to a casino to see a big win and no cash outs especially if they review the tape. I've gotten heat on chips a few times after large wins (20k+). If you're playing at a home casino, it's easy to cash out over a long period of time but if you're traveling, it may be less heat to just cash your chip and CTR. That or sell them to someone else.

**Three** · 05-18-2015, 05:00 AM

Often large denomination chips are hard to cash if you can't show you played at a level to get them. I am talking $1K chips and up. Some places even $500 chips get the same scrutiny.

**21forme** · 05-18-2015, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Tthree

Often large denomination chips are hard to cash if you can't show you played at a level to get them. I am talking $1K chips and up. Some places even $500 chips get the same scrutiny.

Good point. That's why I always ask for barneys when they try to give me pumpkins.