How much do casinos really care?

[Cloudstreets7087]

There is a casino close by to me that I hardly ever go to because there is a cover charge of $10. They say it has to do with the number of tables or something. It's a small casino, but it's really nice inside. I wish they didn't charge that $10.

Anyway, what's great about this casino is that they have $10 tables which is the lowest I have seen in my area. I love making such a small investment while the count is doing its thing.

So, the day before yesterday, I went there and lost $200. The count just kept hovering in that grey area where it stays positive, but it never reaches your bet ramp. So I stuck it out and let the house edge slowly remove $200 from my pocket. Now it was personal.

Yesterday, I went back and bought in for $200 again at a $10 table. One thing about this place is that these tables get crowded. There were 7 players plus the dealer. The count can go from great to not so great all in one hand. So, I was min betting for an hour and my stack went up and down, but I was up $130. The count rocketed to +4 TC. my normal bet ramp would put that at $400 but my stack couldn't support it. So, I fired out $200. I went from $10 to $200. I thought for sure that would raise eyebrows. Nope. Won the hand. Fired out another $200 bet and won. Dealer didn't say a word. Count went down. Fired out $50 and won and then count went back to min betting. I colored up and left with $580 profit.

Had a half day at work. Swung by the casino and took another $100 from them with a $200 buy-in.

I dont know what your guy's experience has been but I don't think these places care with small stakes.

I increased my bet 2000% twice in a row and won and then reduced it in a structured way. I really didn't care what happened because I hate their cover charge.

I just wonder how much effort has to be put into camouflage at these stakes.

[Avincow]

Yes you can get away with a lot sometimes. But don't fall into the trap of thinking that you will never get backed off. It happens to best of card counters. Hasn't happened to me yet and been at this for 9 months now. But I know it's inevitable. And I had some close calls where I knew if I didn't leave right after the shoe, I would get backed off. Better to be safe than sorry. Play perfect blackjack, but play the role of a gambler, don't be greedy, play short sessions.

Btw, going to 10 to 200 isn't always a good idea. And you were gunna go 10 to 400 if you had the stacks!? I hope you know how reckless that is.

[Cloudstreets7087]

I tilted for sure. And my ramp is based on a $25 table to boot. So it was reckless. I just thought it worth sharing.

[ohbehave]

Don't get lulled into thinking they don't care. They want your bankroll, so they are going to let you play until they realize they aren't going to get it. Figure out ways to make them think they are slowly getting your money. You may need the help of some good books on the subject.

[Aslan]

It all depends on the casino and whether you hit them at the right time or not. I was backed off going from $25 to $125 in a DD game; it was the second time I showed a bet spread, but it wasn't at the same table. I've done much more obvious spreads than that in shoe games without a hint of heat. If they happen to be looking your way, bingo! In some casinos they're always looking your way, and in others its a hit and miss proposition with more in your favor if you're playing small.

[Marlene]

And in some cases they either never look your way or when they do they haven't a clue whats happening.

[Cloudstreets7087]

I have been playing without a casino player's card. Is it best to use one or not? I don't care about comps. If they are tracking your performance isn't that a great way to get heat? Unless you leave the table and have them save your place, rat hole chips and then return and when you color up it looks like a loss.

[Dieter]

I have been playing without a casino player's card. Is it best to use one or not?

Any small place, it doesn't matter. If they've seen you a few times, they recognize you.

They may not track your play by your actual name, but if all the suits know who you are and know that they're referring to you when they say "Anonymous Player #378", it doesn't matter.

Just like I recognize all the dealers and all the suits and a fair number of the players when I go into a small place after a break of a few months, they recognize me. You should assume they recognize you, too.

They have a reasonable photo of you from the table, a clear photo of you from the cage and choke points, and assume if you've ever parked on property that they know your license plate number. It's OK not to volunteer your real name and address for them to add to your surveillance network dossier.

[ZeeBabar]

You can play with a players card but you must develop techniques such as rat holing, knowing to quit when ahead at dealer change or when they are replenishing, ensure they note amount lost each time you have a losing session and more. Often, once they determine you are a poor player or a good player addicted to gambling, even when they see you leave a winner, they think you will surely return and give them your winnings back.

[MJGolf]

What Dieter said.
I just went by one of the small places here. And before I really played anything, they asked "how was I" "hadn't seen me in awhile"........which would have been ok. Then one of PB's said it had been about 4 months since I had been there. So don't think they don't know you. But I agree that smaller bets..........no matter what the spread......if less than black chip or not blackchip often........don't get too much grief.

[Aslan]

What Dieter said.
I just went by one of the small places here. And before I really played anything, they asked "how was I" "hadn't seen me in awhile"........which would have been ok. Then one of PB's said it had been about 4 months since I had been there. So don't think they don't know you. But I agree that smaller bets..........no matter what the spread......if less than black chip or not blackchip often........don't get too much grief.

Either you have a memorable personality or look, or I would suspect you are on their suspected skilled players list. Am I paranoid? What do they say? "If they're really out to get you, then you're not being paranoid."

[KJ]

I tried to send you a PM, cloudstreet, but I guess you are not a subscriber and unable to receive PM's.

Since I have to post in public, I will not ask you if this is Valley Forge (who also charges that $10 entry fee). But I am going to share my recent history and thoughts about VF anyway. If that is not who you are taking about, hopefully my 'alert' will benefit others.

I have had more issues with VF than I think any other casino. Heat, multiple backoffs, one weird situation where a 20 year old security 'boy' was assigned to follow me around (I presume to make sure I didn't play BJ). All this in about a dozen total visits to the place over 3 or 4 years.

On my latest trip, I was backed off at VF again almost immediately. In the following days I was prohibited from playing BJ and flat bet at two other eastern Pa casinos, of which I have played several times per year without incident. Upon returning home to Las Vegas, I was backed off 2 different casinos in my Las Vegas regular rotation within 3 days. There are only a handful of places I play rated in Las Vegas, and these just happened to be two of them. So my recent VF backoff, lead to a total of 5 backoffs in about a weeks time. This from a guy who averages about 6 per year. Of course VF being an independent casino has no ties to any of these other 4 casinos.

It is my conclusion, based on talking with other players on several sites, as well as my own experiences and talking with my friend who works the pit here in Vegas, that Valley forge is not only among the sweatiest places I have encountered in my career, right up there nose and nose with El cortez and South Point, but what makes VF really dangerous is they are a very active participant with OSN, which led to my problems returning home. I also believe they communicate with other PA casinos, via Fax (flyer suspected AP's), even though they have no affiliation with them (shades of Reno casinos).

Did I mention that Valley forge is dangerous? They are now out of my out-of town rotation, I guess one trip too late. My own fault. Just want players to know that an issue with VF, doesn't necessarily mean an issue with JUST Valley Forge.

[ZenKinG]

I tried to send you a PM, cloudstreet, but I guess you are not a subscriber and unable to receive PM's.

Since I have to post in public, I will not ask you if this is Valley Forge (who also charges that $10 entry fee). But I am going to share my recent history and thoughts about VF anyway. If that is not who you are taking about, hopefully my 'alert' will benefit others.

I have had more issues with VF than I think any other casino. Heat, multiple backoffs, one weird situation where a 20 year old security 'boy' was assigned to follow me around (I presume to make sure I didn't play BJ). All this in about a dozen total visits to the place over 3 or 4 years.

On my latest trip, I was backed off at VF again almost immediately. In the following days I was prohibited from playing BJ and flat bet at two other eastern Pa casinos, of which I have played several times per year without incident. Upon returning home to Las Vegas, I was backed off 2 different casinos in my Las Vegas regular rotation within 3 days. There are only a handful of places I play rated in Las Vegas, and these just happened to be two of them. So my recent VF backoff, lead to a total of 5 backoffs in about a weeks time. This from a guy who averages about 6 per year. Of course VF being an independent casino has no ties to any of these other 4 casinos.

It is my conclusion, based on talking with other players on several sites, as well as my own experiences and talking with my friend who works the pit here in Vegas, that Valley forge is not only among the sweatiest places I have encountered in my career, right up there nose and nose with El cortez and South Point, but what makes VF really dangerous is they are a very active participant with OSN, which led to my problems returning home. I also believe they communicate with other PA casinos, via Fax (flyer suspected AP's), even though they have no affiliation with them (shades of Reno casinos).

Did I mention that Valley forge is dangerous? They are now out of my out-of town rotation, I guess one trip too late. My own fault. Just want players to know that an issue with VF, doesn't necessarily mean an issue with JUST Valley Forge.

KJ what's your email or something I can contact you with. Look at the chat on here.