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Thread: Is surrender still a common option? Comparing games

  1. #1


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    Is surrender still a common option? Comparing games

    here in my part of the Midwest, surrender does not exist, I never see it offered. If surrender is offered, is it offered on all games in a casino or selectively? How big of an edge does it provide? I think the challenge is to compare games and come to the right conclusions.

    For example, in my neighborhood casino, the DD, Min $25 game is H17, double on 9-11 only and the 6 deck game is H17 no surrender but all other options available. On the DD game penetration varies by dealer with some cutting 1 deck off and others cutting 1/2 deck (75%) off. I play the DD game when the penetration is 75% but when dealers change and the penetration reduces to 50%, I move off to the 6 deck game where the penetration is always about 1.2 decks. The problem with the 6 deck game is the lower min. ($10) and side bets which slow the game down considerably.

  2. #2
    Senior Member BigJer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    here in my part of the Midwest, surrender does not exist, I never see it offered. If surrender is offered, is it offered on all games in a casino or selectively? How big of an edge does it provide? I think the challenge is to compare games and come to the right conclusions.
    According to WoO Late Surrender is 0.08%.

    http://wizardofodds.com/games/blackj...RuleVariations
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    Don't take this the wrong way but maybe take a moment to think through some of your questions... Re Surrender what do you think. It should be fairly obvious and.... fairly easy to find out. Also if you are actively playing you should have a book or website in mind where you can go to reference the impact of surrender on the house edge.

    I also don't see why a lower minimum would be a problem... you don't have to bet the minimum. Unless what you are saying is that the lower minimum contributes to the slower game because more people are playing. Yes side bets do slow down the game.... not much you can do about that.

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    Howdy, ZB!

    I play on the West Coast and I just don't see surrender. I was playing at Reno a while ago and an older, Asian guy who spoke no English had a 16 v 10 and he made the 'surrender' sign below his cards (draw a horizontal line below your cards) and the Dealer just looked at him like a deer in a spotlight. She asked him if he wanted a hit and he, again, drew the line. The game had completely stopped for this. Finally, I said, "He wants to surrender." and the Dealer said, "What's that?"

    I'd love to hear from others who play in areas where surrender is common.

    SiMi

  5. #5


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    Surrender is plentiful on the east coast and can be found in various places in Las Vegas. Sometimes it is a commonplace move among patrons, other times people (including dealers) will tell you you're a wus and throwing away money. But mostly, people will ask what surrender is when you do it.

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    Senior Member Jabberwocky's Avatar
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    I love it when I tell the dealer, "Here we go again. Throwing away more money to the casino." Then sheepishly surrendering the hand.

  7. #7


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    I've surrendered games without surrender.

    It's not too hard to find out west. (SoCal & Vegas)

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by mushin View Post
    Don't take this the wrong way but maybe take a moment to think through some of your questions... Re Surrender what do you think. It should be fairly obvious and.... fairly easy to find out. Also if you are actively playing you should have a book or website in mind where you can go to reference the impact of surrender on the house edge.
    This sounds familiar...

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMi View Post
    Howdy, ZB!

    I play on the West Coast and I just don't see surrender. I was playing at Reno a while ago and an older, Asian guy who spoke no English had a 16 v 10 and he made the 'surrender' sign below his cards (draw a horizontal line below your cards) and the Dealer just looked at him like a deer in a spotlight. She asked him if he wanted a hit and he, again, drew the line. The game had completely stopped for this. Finally, I said, "He wants to surrender." and the Dealer said, "What's that?"

    I'd love to hear from others who play in areas where surrender is common.

    SiMi

    Alive and well on the East.
    There is no glory in practice, but without practice there is no glory . -Unknown

  10. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    This sounds familiar...
    Since I never play games with surrender, why would I go look it up? I just ask and the more decent people do, as you can see, answer. You and some on the other forum are the sort who will tell someone who politely asks for direction to go get a GPS or see a homeless person, roll down your window and yell to go get a job. $&@&$ idiots. Can't ever understand why, other than immaturity, would a guy read and respond to people they have already decided they do not like or are a troll or whatever. Mature people do not respond to people who they believe they should not.

  11. #11


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    Quote Originally Posted by moses View Post
    Hey Simi: West Coast terms of surrender is what one should do when you receive a a friendly tap on the should. Raising your hands is optional.
    Haha I like that. Never played on the west though.


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    If the count is high and your EV is less than 50% on many hands with big bets out, what effect do you think surrendering these hands at 50% EV on your expectation? How about variance? Rather than losing lots of big bets that are bad hands or getting lucky and winning them you just have a certain result of getting half your bet back. What do you think that will do for your ride to the long run? What about RoR? If you lump all those crappy hands with big bets together and simply lose half of what you bet rather than expect to lose more than half over the long haul while losing 100% on most of the bets? What about your bet sizing for your BR at your desired RoR? Do you think your optimal ramp would be more aggressive? What about that .08% that it is worth to the flat bettor? Do you think it is worth the same for a card counter using a bet ramp that betts bigger when there is a high count and uses indices that surrenders all the hands when the count is high enough that surrender has a higher EV? Just some food for thought. I bet you can figure out most of the answers.

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    Since I never play games with surrender, why would I go look it up? I just ask and the more decent people do, as you can see, answer. You and some on the other forum are the sort who will tell someone who politely asks for direction to go get a GPS or see a homeless person, roll down your window and yell to go get a job. $&@&$ idiots. Can't ever understand why, other than immaturity, would a guy read and respond to people they have already decided they do not like or are a troll or whatever. Mature people do not respond to people who they believe they should not.
    Why should you look it up? Because you had a question with a simple-to-find solution. One tends to remember things better if they do the work themselves, and research is the key to success. Your laziness is so typical of the government employee you are.

    Enjoy it here while it lasts. you've been on BJ21 for 3 years, asking the same newbie questions over and over again. That's why just about everyone there either ignores you or replies to you with sarcasm and insults. People here will tire of your laziness soon enough, too.

    Re the GPS analogy, I answered that one on BJ21 for you previously. But since you are incapable of looking it up yourself, here's what I said:
    I have no problem giving someone directions if they ask. However, if that same person asks for the same directions over and over again, then they are on their own.

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