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Thread: What would stop a casino...

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    Senior Member Aslan's Avatar
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    What would stop a casino...

    ...from using a gaffed shuffle machine to rip off its customers?

    I have never seen this happen to the best of my knowledge. But a few times this thought occurred to me while I was playing an especially poor shoe. When everything seems to be going along as if scripted, the thought may force its way into your consciousness. Every time you hit a double down 11, you get an ace, deuce, three, or four; every time you hit a stiff, you bust; every time you have 20, the dealer hits 21; and so forth.

    Consider this. We already know that a shoe can be stacked in such a way that the house or player will win every hand, if that is the desire of the cheater, so long as the player plays BS. If the player deviates from BS, he may (or may not) win that hand, but just as soon as he returns to BS, he will lose each hand thereafter. This has been documented in The Book.

    We also know that machines can be built that can read the cards and actually count cards-- yes, Mindplay.

    We all know that conscienceless individuals, mobsters, are sometimes associated with running gaming operations.

    So, what is to prevent a company from manufacturing a shuffle machine that can not only read the cards, but can stack them in "cooler order" on demand so that the player loses every hand, or more difficult to detect, the majority of hands, where BS is used by the players. Such a cooler is impervious to the cutting of the cards, the burning of cards, the changing number of players, and to player mistakes. The technology exists. It can be done.

    What keeps the casinos from employing such a device? Probably the biggest reason is the risk of losing its license to operate a place of gambling. It would require some people to know about the cheating and we all know how hard it is to keep a "secret" secret when more than one person knows it. But, OTOH, that did not stop casinos from other kinds of cheating in the past, and other types of thievery, such as the practice of "skimming." And if certain gaming and government officials have been bribed, the risk of being caught is diminished considerably.

    So that's my case. It is a sobering thought, In summary:

    Means: The technology exists and officials can be bribed
    Motive: Money
    Opportunity: Yes
    Crime: ???

    So what do you think? Tear it up. It's only a straw man.

    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 - 8/23/10... “Life’s most urgent question is: what are you doing for others?” — Martin Luther King, Jr.

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    How is it different from a rigged slot machine?

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    Aslan.

    I found it really amazing the first time I read about "coolers." Almost scary even. That being said, (I used to NEVER do this) but lately when I feel I am getting my a$$ handed to me at a particular place, by a certain dealer etc, If I can go elsewhere, sometimes I will just move on quicker than usual. I feel it can be psychologically better for me at least to just move on.

    I feel like casinos have way too much to lose to ever do this sort of thing though. When the cards flow like the way you mentioned, I find that thoughts of "cheating" or some other voodoo crap I don't believe in can still creep in from sub conscience for brief moments. I feel leaving is not a bad idea to clear my head. It is probably best for heat/longevity too just to leave because this is what most gamblers would do.

    Still, coolers are crazy. I want to set some cards up and deal one to some non AP friends some night while they play for dollars just to see the looks on their faces. HAHA.

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    Senior Member UK-21's Avatar
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    This is really all about doubt, resulting from results and outcomes that seem so high-improbable they raise questions in the mind of the person who's been on the receiving end of them?

    I'm currently in the same place, having seem my small balance with an online poker operator reduced to zero as a consequence of a succession of losses, and being ejected from SnGs, from very long odds draws. Still thinking about it to be honest.

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    Senior Member Frostbyte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Most Interesting Man View Post
    How is it different from a rigged slot machine?
    Video gambling machines are inspected with some degree of regularity, aren't they? That's how Ron Harris was able to slip his Konami Code into that AC keno machine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    ...from using a gaffed shuffle machine to rip off its customers?

    I have never seen this happen to the best of my knowledge. But a few times this thought occurred to me while I was playing an especially poor shoe. When everything seems to be going along as if scripted, the thought may force its way into your consciousness. Every time you hit a double down 11, you get an ace, deuce, three, or four; every time you hit a stiff, you bust; every time you have 20, the dealer hits 21; and so forth.
    For this to work you'd have to enforce NMSE and know in advance exactly how many players were going to be at the table and exactly what plays each one would make, and program the ASM accordingly on the spot. So to my mind it's about as feasible as planting explosives in the base of the towers while pretending that three planes are hijacked but in fact rerouting them to Pennsylvania and replacing them with two military jets flown into the towers loaded with more explosives, and simultaneously shooting down all the witnesses on a third plane with an F-15 and blowing up your secondary target with a cruise missile. It would only be the world's most intricate and flawlessly executed plan ever, ever.

    We also know that machines can be built that can read the cards and actually count cards-- yes, Mindplay.
    True. But Mindplay was a commercial failure due to the effort required to make full use of it, which is dwarfed by the scenario you describe.

    We all know that conscienceless individuals, mobsters, are sometimes associated with running gaming operations.
    In a poker game, with only one deck to stack and where a shoe doesn't make it nearly impossible to covertly deal seconds, sure. Or in a roulette game, where the wheel can be deliberately imbalanced. But in the former case we have the shoe and in the latter the disparity in odds can cut both ways once someone notices the imbalance. I suppose you could do what the French roulette cheats did and use a remote-controlled ball to manually alter the results of every spin and prevent anyone from winning, but that's a level of sophistication beyond that which we can non-conspiratorially contemplate.

    So, what is to prevent a company from manufacturing a shuffle machine that can not only read the cards, but can stack them in "cooler order" on demand so that the player loses every hand, or more difficult to detect, the majority of hands, where BS is used by the players. Such a cooler is impervious to the cutting of the cards, the burning of cards, the changing number of players, and to player mistakes. The technology exists. It can be done.
    Why is the cooler impervious to cut? A difference in cut of a single card could conceivably reverse the cooling effect and cause the dealer to bust on every stiff and the player to draw to 21 with spine-tingling regularity. We were concerned about the preferential shuffling possibilities opened up by MindPlay, but this never materialized, partly due to the effort involved and partly due to regulatory limitations NGCB imposed when they approved the system.

    What keeps the casinos from employing such a device? Probably the biggest reason is the risk of losing its license to operate a place of gambling. It would require some people to know about the cheating and we all know how hard it is to keep a "secret" secret when more than one person knows it. But, OTOH, that did not stop casinos from other kinds of cheating in the past, and other types of thievery, such as the practice of "skimming." And if certain gaming and government officials have been bribed, the risk of being caught is diminished considerably.
    And of course, loss of license is a serious risk. Anyone who exposed this sort of cheating would ruin the casino whether gaming brought the hammer down on them or not.

    It's a sobering thought, but much less sobering when considered outside the context of a seriously negative shoe or two.
    Last edited by Frostbyte; 09-21-2012 at 01:51 PM. Reason: Consolidation of posts
    "Wait a minute. How do you beat someone to death with their own skull? That doesn't seem physically possible." "That's what Jimmy kept screaming: 'This doesn't seem physically possible!'"

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    What would stop a casino from using a gaffed SM?
    1. They don't have to-------the crappy games they offer make for a lucrative enough hold without cheating.
    2. Gaming commission (don't laugh). In some places they occasionally do their job.
    3. Sometimes I'm more trusting than I should be and other times more cynical than I should be. Today must be a trusting day for me!

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    Senior Member bigplayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    ...from using a gaffed shuffle machine to rip off its customers?
    Fear of losing it's license to print money (aka it's Casino License). Having an actual gaffed machine on-site would provide ready evidence of a crime (just like a gaffed shoe or marked cards). This becomes less true in a foreign casino with weak oversight. I know players who strongly suspected that they were cheated and went to gaming authorities in Aruba and were basically told that gaming there really has no authority to do anything except collect tax revenue.

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    Senior Member Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frostbyte View Post
    For this to work you'd have to enforce NMSE and know in advance exactly how many players were going to be at the table and exactly what plays each one would make, and program the ASM accordingly on the spot.
    This is absolutely not true. You'd have to read The Book section on card arrangement for cooler shoes, but they work regardless of how many players, regardless of who enters or who drops out. The only chance to escape a sure losing hand is to not follow basic strategy; even then, you only have a "chance" to win, not a certainty. Trust me, it's nothing like a cooler in a poker game where exactitude is required.

    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 - 8/23/10... “Life’s most urgent question is: what are you doing for others?” — Martin Luther King, Jr.

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    Do you have an example of one of these cooler arrangements? I suspect if you were to realize that such an order is in place you would be able to turn it into a massive advantage to the player.

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    Two X man.... In most cases as I remember reading it you are SOL no matter your playing strategy. Even hitting on stiffs etc would just be a guess and may make you push or win the hand if lucky.
    It is impervious to cut too.

    The sickest thing one could do is arrange a massive count increase, then a 4 deck cooler with all the 10s in the back. That would obliterate your BR.

    I will not post an example. I hope no one else does.

    Casinos already murder most BJ players anyways due to under funding and ****ty play. They would not do this IMO. At least not anywhere I would wager $$ at.
    Last edited by White Guy; 09-21-2012 at 03:50 PM.

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    So you don't believe that if you had knowledge that a cooler deck is in use, and as a result, the exact order of cards you couldn't find a way to exploit that to make big bucks? That no matter whether you hit, stand, split, or play any number of boxes there would be no way to beat it. I want evidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Most Interesting Man View Post
    So you don't believe that if you had knowledge that a cooler deck is in use, and as a result, the exact order of cards you couldn't find a way to exploit that to make big bucks? That no matter whether you hit, stand, split, or play any number of boxes there would be no way to beat it. I want evidence.
    You need to read the novel everyone is referring to. Or just give it some thought and you will see what I mean.

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    Senior Member Frostbyte's Avatar
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    I think if anyone were consistently hit with cooler shoes, teams would form very quickly to beat it. By having one player with small bets not follow BS, deliberately taking every inconvenient card, you could turn the cooled shoe. Not that it wouldn't work on standard players, but I have limitless confidence in humanity's ingenuity and recalcitrance.
    "Wait a minute. How do you beat someone to death with their own skull? That doesn't seem physically possible." "That's what Jimmy kept screaming: 'This doesn't seem physically possible!'"

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