Part Time Professional Players (PTPPs)

[Aslan]

I stated in a thread on ROR that when I encountered a related but off the track post, I would start a new thread to discuss the topic if I thought it worthy to comment on. The idea of PTPTs is one that interests me and worth a discussion of IMHO. I hope SiMi does not mind my copying his post here; it is done in all innocence, if in fact it matters.

Hi, marriedputter!

I enjoyed reading your explanation about talking to Dealers. I have come to believe that, since Casinos are now located all over the place, there are a lot of AP BJ players in the world who do not have scores of Casinos to 'hit and run' within easy reach. These players may have only 1-3 Casinos in their area and they quickly realize their situation requires a different style of play or they will be barred from any action in their area. (I think some authors might refer to such people as "recreational players" but I do not believe that term is apt in many of these cases.)

I suspect that many of these players are "part-time professional players (PTPP)" and they cannot, as a practical matter, push every advantage to the max, treat the Casino staff as robots and fail to blend in with the ploppies if they hope to survive. "Longevity" to such players is measured in YEARS rather than hours or minutes. Much of the advice one reads about AP Blackjack seems to ignore these players.

Many of the posts here seem to come at every topic from only one point of view, usually that of a full-time player who is not interested in developing a style of play that permits YEARS of hassle-free, advantage play at a few places. It's a tricky art and seems to be under-recognized. I've often thought it would help if the posters here would clarify that they are in this PTPP category.

It seems that when a 'hit and run' player meets a PTPP, it's like two ships passing in the night...

Chat 'em up if it helps!
SiMi

I think you are right on in contrasting full time APs, many of whom practice the hit and run strategy, with the part timers who play a limited area where longevity is important to them. I would also point out that the older you get the less appealing is the prospect of running from casino to casino to ply your trade, at least, that's been my personal experience.

[SiMi]

Hi, Aslan!

No problem chatting over here as far as I'm concerned.

As you say, age and possibly other issues such as physical limitations could contribute to someone avoiding 'hit and run.' There are also people who enjoy playing properly with an edge partly for the challenge and may not need the income. These folks are not interested in Max EV, slash and burn styles but are still 'professionals' in the way they conduct themselves and ply their skills. These people walk a fine line and probably find, as I have, that it's as much art as science to keep the welcome mat out for years. Blending in and being an asset are two general skills I believe are VERY useful. Being extremely observant is also VERY helpful. Others probably have lots of ideas.

Best,
SiMi

[Mickey]

Excellent discussion. I certainly consider myself a PTPP so here's a piggyback'ed question along that style of player: when leaving a session after a WIN:

1.) How do you acknowledge the PB while getting up and leaving (if at all), particularly if he is glancing over at you & the dealer (to acknowledge the color up) or walks over to the table while you're leaving?

2.) How much thought do you put into the PB'S reaction to you, particularly if you're trying to be nice and "thank him" while leaving only to find he is not smiling back and just doesn't look happy (hardly making eye contact with you when you're clearly trying to give a polite goodbye, etc)?

[SiMi]

Hey, Mickey!

PB treatment after a win.

1) I just have to comment that I try really hard to keep the appearance of a win down by rat holing. So, I almost never leave a table with a color up showing a BIG win. My approach is to tend to focus more on any other players at the table (or just sitting down) along the lines of, "Thanks a lot. It was really fun playing with you. Best of luck!" something like that. If I think I can pull it off, I'll comment loudly to another player, "Well, I almost got it all back." Or something like that to indicate that I am leaving with chips but I'm still down. I try to have at least one player I have been friendly with so I can chat with them mostly as I'm leaving. That's a real problem playing solo at a table.
If the PB is watching closely but NOT making eye contact (they are often checking the color up), I just ignore them since I don't want to force them to look at me. If they are watching closely and making eye contact with me (or trying), I give them a big smile and say, as I turn to leave, "Thanks, I had a great time." I don't want to get into a discussion so I keep moving.

2) I have thought a lot about the PB reactions to me. I have found that many of them seem to feel that they simply CANNOT appear to be friendly for whatever reason. It's not heat. It's just how they deal with the job. With these people, I just smile and nod to them no matter what s/he is doing (frowning, scowling, etc.). A few of them try to be friendly and, for those, I back off because I do NOT want to strike up a conversation of any length at all with them. I just want it to be brief and friendly at all times but not too personal.

Does that address your issues? What are your thoughts on a smooth exit?

Thanks for participating!
SiMi

[Mickey]

Does that address your issues? What are your thoughts on a smooth exit?

Awesome convo, SiMi...

One line that always seems to work quite well for me during the exiting color up is to say to the other players & dealer (in an almost jokingly enthusiastic way) "Woohoo! Now I'm almost EVEN!" with a big smile on my face. It almost always gets a laugh out of either the dealer or player(s) at the table and the PB hears this line within earshot to elude the fact that I'm still down at that establishment. I tend to be pretty social with EVERYONE at the table during entry & session play so that exit approach tends to work for me & my personality.

As for your comments on PBs having that IMpersonal persona to them and to not always take it as heat and makes sense also...

Thanks!

[Dieter]

1.) How do you acknowledge the PB while getting up and leaving (if at all), particularly if he is glancing over at you & the dealer (to acknowledge the color up) or walks over to the table while you're leaving?

2.) How much thought do you put into the PB'S reaction to you, particularly if you're trying to be nice and "thank him" while leaving only to find he is not smiling back and just doesn't look happy (hardly making eye contact with you when you're clearly trying to give a polite goodbye, etc)?

1. Normal conversation. Wins are a normal part of the game, even for civilians. It's OK for them to congratulate you on a winning day, it's their job - they want the civilians to remember their wins more than they remember their losses. If you're a PTPP where you're playing the same places week after week after week for years, the PB's all know you by name anyway. It's just not a big deal. (Caveat: my "neighborhood" places have no heat, period.)

2. The part I worry about is that the PB's and dealers don't think I'm an obnoxious jerk. These people are my coworkers, in a sense. I'm going to be dealing with them for years. It doesn't make sense to create animosity. You don't need to be thought of as "the nicest, most wonderful person" all the time, but you need to never be thought of as the most horrible, undesirable person at the table, ever.

If you do end up playing the same place for years, you may start to hear dealers (and PB's, and hosts, and...) grouse about the unpleasant players. That's probably a good sign; they don't seem to complain to the unpleasant players.

[Dieter]

One line that always seems to work quite well for me during the exiting color up

Do you color up all at the end, or as you go?

[Aslan]

Speaking of exiting, I have a bad habit of playing until I'm in the winning column. I think it's a good idea to leave occasionally with a loss, a real loss, not a rat hole loss (it's all one continuous session anyway, so what's the difference if you leave loser occasionally?). I have cut back on my rat holing quite a bit since the early days because I realize that the more I habituate a particular casino, the more they'll notice things about my game. Rat holing is not one of the things I hope they'll figure out-- if they see it and it's not the natural ploppy type, it's a "tell". Ploppies are always rat holing chips in hopes of not subsequently losing them. They think by taking them out of play, they are ensuring a win. Sometimes it works, but as often as not you'll see those chips reenter the game in the course of time.

I have no problem chatting it up with the pit-- football, weather, food, crime in the city, items in the news that day or week, etc. It never hurts to show your human side. I don't want to come off as a quiet, dark, mysterious, or aloof person. It may fit some people's personality, but not mine, as I am an extroverted personality type. A con man once told me that the best con is the truth. I am not advocating anyone become a con man in its worst connotations, but the cat and mouse game does call for deception, and basically that's all that con is. In this case it's deception that helps one pursue a "legal" and honorable occupation. It's the same as deception in poker-- it's part of the game.

[Aslan]

1.) Alot depends on the pit boss. His body langauge will likely tell a story. One in particular, makes several stops to check the tray or the size of the dealer tip stack. He never smiles around me but is jovial with others. If I were in his home I'd want to exit now type. It's ridiculous. He acts as though he wants to start hi fives with someone when I have a losing session...and just can't believe I had a winning session on his watch. Solution; I just don't play during his shift anymore. How's the Micheal Jackson song go "one bad apple can spoil the whole bunch?"

2.) I don't tried to hide anything. I give them credit for knowing the score. Tipping the dealer and saying "it was fun" even in a loss seems to carry more credibility and respect with the pit. I might say something like, "maybe I'll come later and try to get even" or "we'll play best 2 out of 3 after lunch."
If he/she is coming toward the table after a session win, I'm not going to scurry off in a hurry as though I just did something wrong. I don't say anything until they do - then a humble response like "better to be lucky than good."
Mainly, don't be a sore loser. The guy that storms off in a huff will likely leave a bad impression/memory. However, I try to circle around a machine or stop to pretend to check a score on the ticker to see his/her face when I'm not within their eyesight. If I see a look of concern then I give them some space.

Oh and by all means, if other players are winning and giving the pit the business, it's time to exit. Guilt by association and a whizzed off pit boss are not a good combination.

If I win, I am more and more inclined to tip the dealer as I exit the game. I have finally come to accept that tipping is nearly as expected as restaurant tipping, even though no service is actually performed by the dealer other than being congenial and helping to make your stay pleasant, something I suppose you could say should be expected anyway. Not tipping I believe is a clue to being an advantage player, unless your stay is short and sweet. If you want to be accepted as a ploppy, you have to act like a ploppy. There's no set way a ploppy acts, but tipping is certainly one of them. Since I play for the sociability in addition to the money, it would be out of character to never tip, whether I think the dealer deserves it or not. YMMV

[Mickey]

Do you color up all at the end, or as you go?

Usually at the end...

[Dieter]

Usually at the end...

So they've got 2 numbers to go off of (buy in* & cash out), which are probably clearly recorded in the floor's notes.

I try to color up a few times, and I try to change some of it back in.

*Unless you had to rebuy.

[NotEnoughHeat]

If I win, I am more and more inclined to tip the dealer as I exit the game. I have finally come to accept that tipping is nearly as expected as restaurant tipping, even though no service is actually performed by the dealer other than being congenial and helping to make your stay pleasant, something I suppose you could say should be expected anyway. Not tipping I believe is a clue to being an advantage player, unless your stay is short and sweet. If you want to be accepted as a ploppy, you have to act like a ploppy. There's no set way a ploppy acts, but tipping is certainly one of them. Since I play for the sociability in addition to the money, it would be out of character to never tip, whether I think the dealer deserves it or not. YMMV

I live in a country where the tipping culture is a bit different. It's not as expected in general outside a standard nice restaurant. This may or may not be because none of our minimum wage laws reflect tipping. The dealers where I'm at have a pretty decent starting wage ($10.4 USD, not paid in USD though) which is about $2.40 above minimum wage. Tipping still happens at the tables from what I can tell, but about 93% of it is from the extra blackjack (naturals) money people don't want to bother with (dollar chips and 0.5c chips).

[Blitzkrieg]

In this case it's deception that helps one pursue a "legal" and honorable occupation. It's the same as deception in poker-- it's part of the game.

I don't look at the game of blackjack as being a game of deception unless a player is cheating the house on purpose, or the house is cheating the player. In poker the worst hand can win the pot based on a bluff.