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Thread: WTF? Does anyone know any detail on this court case?

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    Senior Member MJGolf's Avatar
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    WTF? Does anyone know any detail on this court case?

    Seems to me that the judge might be off his rocker not that I don't understand the casino's point of view. But if their own game protection people missed the boat, why should winnings be returned because someone was observant????

    http://news.yahoo.com/judge-unshuffl...012808417.html
    "Women and cats will do as they please, and Men and dogs should just relax and get used to the idea" --- Robert A. Heinlein

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    Wit that ruling the casino should return all the losses of every player since they started using the "preshuffled" cards without shuffling them. The casino knew the cards all came in the same random looking order. They chose not to follow the procedure set in the law that requires shuffling new cards coming into the table. If ruling is the casino dealt an illegal game isn't it the point to return the money to the people that the casino cheated by dealing an illegal game more than to take the money from those tat happened to win despite the casino dealing an illegal game?

    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    From the article:
    In the ruling, issued Monday and publicized by the casino on Thursday, the judge determined the games were illegal under state law because they didn't conform to gambling regulations specifying the way each game must be played.

    "The dealer did not pre-shuffle the cards immediately prior to the commencement of play, and the cards were not pre-shuffled in accordance with any regulation," the judge wrote. "Thus, a literal reading of the regulations ... entails that the game violated the (Casino Control) Act, and consequently was not authorized."

    She ruled that the gamblers must return any cash paid to them by the casino and any outstanding chips in their possession. The casino in turn must refund the gamblers the money they first put up to play.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now why didn't the judge rule every player that played mini-baccarat since the casino started using "unshuffled cards" be refunded their losses. For the judge to render the party breaking the law harmless while not reimbursing those patrons that lost money playing an illegal game just screams the judge was on the take. If I was the judge and felt that the casino was dealing an illegal game I would have found out when the casino started using those cards that came in the same random looking order and have them return all the money that every player lost. Once that has been accomplished they could get the disputed money in the court case from escrow. I would bet the casino would be happier with the tens of millions they won dealing an illegal game rather than recouping a little over a million from those that benefited from figuring out the casino had been breaking the law. For players to figure out they had been seeing the same sequence of cards every shoe the casino must have been dealing an illegal game for a long time. Then the Gaming Commission should fine the casino $10K to $100K for each time they dealt an illegal shoe.

    Either the casino broke the law and should be held accountable or the players won the money fair and square.. You can't decide the casino was righteous when they are dealing illegal games by not following the Gaming Commission law on the procedures for shuffling the cards.

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    No way that's going to hold up. You can't penalize someone for another person's violation of the law. This is basically a freeroll for the house. I'm sure this will get overturned.
    The Cash Cow.

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    Senior Member Emeritus Sonny's Avatar
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    I would argue that the cards were pre-shuffled. The fact that they were in order shows that the shuffling procedure is random. Having the cards returned to "new card" order is one of the possible outcomes of a truly random shuffle. If that never happens, the shuffle is not random. Any time you remove or prevent possible outcomes, you destroy the randomness.

    So you see, your honor, the cards had simply been pre-shuffled back to their original order. Pay the man!

    -Sonny-

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny View Post
    would argue that the cards were pre-shuffled. The fact that they were in order shows that the shuffling procedure is random.
    I believe that the cards come "preshuffled". The quotes are there because the cards aren't shuffled at all. Every pack of "preshuffled" cards come in the same order that appears to be random. Tis saves the casino time in trying to get the cards out of a sequenced order into a more random order. The manufacturer never actually shuffled the cards. The just get loaded into each box of 6 or 8 decks in the same order every time like a pack of cards would but the order is not sequenced by rank. It appears to be random but is the same each time. There was one instance tat they dealt cards in order of rank but I think this one is that the players figured out the preshuffled order that appeared random. Most likely the dealer and pit personnel were accomplices but that is not actually necessary. If the casino decided to save even more time than just starting with cards that had an appearance of being random but weren't and didn't shuffle at all in violation of the law on how the game must be dealt. They use these "preshuffles" cards at all their tables. Players can't confirm all the cards are there when the are removed from the box and the random looking order could be a cooler deck if it isn't shuffled. The casino greed got the better of it or it was an inside job that allowed it to happen. What ever happened to the shuffle check call?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    Every pack of "preshuffled" cards come in the same order that appears to be random.
    Is this supposition, or do you have some knowledge or evidence?

    (The USPCC website isn't clear; the sell sheet says "a truly random shuffle from the factory"; the website mentions an RNG and GLI certification - I wouldn't think either would be necessary (or available) if it was just a nonstandard new deck order, rather than every pack in a different order.)
    May the cards fall in your favor.

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    Senior Member MJGolf's Avatar
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    Thinking this out from a logic view point...........if they were "preshuffled" exactly the same way each time, then what is different than a usual deck? It's the same order by most manufacturers......ace to 2 2 to ace ace to 2 etc. for the rankings. So wouldn't that be the same as just putting standard decks into a show and dealing them out without shuffling? If you knew the order of the cards..........not that it wouldn't be OBVIOUS as they started coming out of the shoe sequentially, surely some advantage player would swoop in and figure out the best way to bet and play the sequential order.

    I guess I'm getting off track here but my view is that legally, the house/casino is responsible for the game protection measures. If someone is able to figure out the order of a preshuffled deck........especially in an 8 deck shoe or higher like most baccarat games are, more power to them. Don't think they should have to return any winnings. BUT as T-three opines, I tend to think this IS an inside job. Someone would have to do a lot of work to determine the order of "shuffled" cards in an 8 deck shoe..........for a period of time. They either had help from a pitboss or insider OR they knew the order from the manufacturer. Something smells in Denmark.

    I also agree that if the judge IS correct..........not necessarily in the casino's payroll but you open up the door for a class action by ALL who played those games and lost money. IF they are required to return all the litigants' buy ins.........then what about all the others who played this "illegal" game? Some attorney should be chomping at the bit.

    All in all, I'm just shocked he made them return their winnings WITHOUT any proof of collusion or cheating. That's why I asked if anyone was familiar with the details of this case. Ruling does NOT make sense without more facts.
    "Women and cats will do as they please, and Men and dogs should just relax and get used to the idea" --- Robert A. Heinlein

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    Senior Member Aslan's Avatar
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    Logic tells me that the preshuffled cards from the factory were in fact preshuffled, and differently each time. If they always came in the same "preshuffled" order, then all one has to do is write down the sequence of cards from one shoe and the next time a new shoe begins he will know exactly when to bet and when not to bet, having knowledge of everything that is to come. This is clearly not the case, or all the smart guys in AC would be beating the crap out of baccarat. As to Sonny's humorous defense that the unshuffled order is just another one of the random possibilities, I believe the prosecution might offer the odds of the cards coming out in that specific order, along with the fact that other "preshuffled" cards in their possession were in the very same order, all pointing to the fact that the factory sent the casino unshuffled cards instead of preshuffled cards. The odds would be out-of-this-world astronomical for several decks to be randomly shuffled and come out in the exact same order.

    Also, a sharp prosecutor might actually investigate how the card company accomplishes the preshuffling process. This, I am sure, would add to the casino's claim that the cards were unshuffled and therefore the game was illegally dealt.

    On the judge's ruling, the law is the law, regardless of whether or not it is fair. Courts rule according to the pertinent law, not the fairness of the situation. If you don't like the law, lobby for a change in the wording of the law. How many of you believe the income tax laws are unfair? Just try not paying your prescribed tax amount, claiming the unfairness of the law, and see how you come out. Move over, Wesley, you have a new cell mate! There will be no overturning of this judge's decision IMO.
    Last edited by Aslan; 02-14-2015 at 09:53 AM.

    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 - 8/23/10... “Life’s most urgent question is: what are you doing for others?” — Martin Luther King, Jr.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dieter View Post
    Is this supposition, or do you have some knowledge or evidence?

    (The USPCC website isn't clear; the sell sheet says "a truly random shuffle from the factory"; the website mentions an RNG and GLI certification - I wouldn't think either would be necessary (or available) if it was just a nonstandard new deck order, rather than every pack in a different order.)
    It is memory of something I read a few years ago. I am pretty clear on the memory but I could have gotten it confused over time. Another possibility is my memory is accurate after reading the first incident of the random looking "preshuffle" order being exploited caused the change to a truly random order. You can bet after being named in a lawsuit the company would take every step to make sure it protected its company's reputation and its potential liability.

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    Senior Member Bodarc's Avatar
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    It looks like the Golden Nugget security may have gotten a little too personal over the ordeal. This is far from over.

    http://calvinayre.com/2014/06/14/cas...huffled-cards/

    Nugget owner Tilman Fertitta said his company would pay the $1m if the gamblers would drop their unlawful detention claims. The gamblers refused so Fertitta withdrew his offer and the issue went back to court.

    http://www.app.com/story/news/local/...game/16151257/

    The cards were not in sequential 1-2-3 order, but were arranged in a pre-set pattern that repeated itself every 16 hands.
    The players soon realized this, and increased their bets from $10 a hand to $5,000. After 37 hands were dealt, the players all placed the same bet, and won every hand until the cards ran out.

    http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...ard_manuf.html

    The three are from Atlantic City, Queens and Brooklyn, N.Y. One of them, Hua Shi of Brooklyn claims he was sleeping in his room at the casino when someone knocked on the door. When he answered, he was rushed by four Golden Nugget employees who pinned him against the wall and searched him and his belongings, according to his lawsuit. He said casino personnel held him in a room without food, water or an interpreter for eight hours. After a second search of his room, he was released, his lawsuit asserts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodarc View Post
    The cards were not in sequential 1-2-3 order, but were arranged in a pre-set pattern that repeated itself every 16 hands.
    The players soon realized this, and increased their bets from $10 a hand to $5,000. After 37 hands were dealt, the players all placed the same bet, and won every hand until the cards ran out.

    http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...ard_manuf.html
    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    Another possibility is my memory is accurate after reading the first incident of the random looking "preshuffle" order being exploited caused the change to a truly random order. You can bet after being named in a lawsuit the company would take every step to make sure it protected its company's reputation and its potential liability.
    I think we have a winner.

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    Obviously the average round in baccarat has between 4 and 6 cards and the 16 round/pattern (64 to 96 cards/pattern) should be divisible into 8 decks or 416 cards. the prime factors of 416:
    2*2*2*2*2*13.

    There would be 26 patterns per 8 deck shoe. What are the odds that a randomly selected pattern would result in the repeating sequence of 16 rounds when played in baccarat and use 8 complete decks to end the last sequence? I submit it is mathematically impossible and one sequence would need to be incomplete(416/4 would be a 104 card sequence which is too many cards, the next available integer multiple of the prime factors is 8 which would be 52 cards which is too few cards. 16 rounds is between 64 cards (all 4 card rounds) and 96 cards (all 6 card rounds)). The factory or someone at the casino rigged the 8 deck packs of cards. The only motivation was to allow players to get a 100% advantage.

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    Senior Member Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodarc View Post
    It looks like the Golden Nugget security may have gotten a little too personal over the ordeal. This is far from over.

    http://calvinayre.com/2014/06/14/cas...huffled-cards/

    Nugget owner Tilman Fertitta said his company would pay the $1m if the gamblers would drop their unlawful detention claims. The gamblers refused so Fertitta withdrew his offer and the issue went back to court.

    http://www.app.com/story/news/local/...game/16151257/

    The cards were not in sequential 1-2-3 order, but were arranged in a pre-set pattern that repeated itself every 16 hands.
    The players soon realized this, and increased their bets from $10 a hand to $5,000. After 37 hands were dealt, the players all placed the same bet, and won every hand until the cards ran out.

    http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...ard_manuf.html

    The three are from Atlantic City, Queens and Brooklyn, N.Y. One of them, Hua Shi of Brooklyn claims he was sleeping in his room at the casino when someone knocked on the door. When he answered, he was rushed by four Golden Nugget employees who pinned him against the wall and searched him and his belongings, according to his lawsuit. He said casino personnel held him in a room without food, water or an interpreter for eight hours. After a second search of his room, he was released, his lawsuit asserts.
    I had thought the Golden Nugget in AC was owned by Steve Wynn. Was it ever? Now we see it's owned by one of the Fertitta's from Texas. Frank and Lorenza Fertitta own the Station Casinos in Las Vegas, both billionaires allegedly connected with the illegal gambling family of the same name out of Galveston, Texas, if I'm not mistaken. Also, one of the stories mentions Landry's as owner, a Texas based restaurant company, so I guess that is a Fertitta-owned company. The Golden Nugget in Las Vegas is also owned by Landry's. I would surmise these are not necessarily customer friendly guys the baccarat players are dealing with, but rather wise in their handling of casino issues. The players may have illegal detention or kidnapping cases that are potentially worth more than the winnings they were not able to keep or draw. Does anyone suspect possible influence in the court verdict? Of course, there is no known tie of organized crime to New Jersey officials-- we all know that. After all, Tony Soprano is dead, isn't he?

    Aslan 11/1/90 - 6/15/10 Stormy 1/22/95 - 8/23/10... “Life’s most urgent question is: what are you doing for others?” — Martin Luther King, Jr.

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