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Thread: Prob with indices

  1. #1
    Senior Member Bodarc's Avatar
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    Prob with indices

    Norm

    I am in the process of learning more indices for FELT. I have a problem finding out the correct variance.
    Here is an example with just 12's:

    12V2 5 7
    12V3 2 5
    12V4 0 2
    12V5 -3 -1
    12V6 -7 -4

    The first column of indices is given when I compute them using CVBJ. The second column is obtained from CVData.
    I made sure that I used the same input to each program which is:

    2D H17, DOA, DAS, RSA, Dealer peaks 10&A, No surrender - Asked for full indices.

    What am I doing wrong and which is correct?
    Play within your bankroll, pick your games with care and learn everything you can about the game. The winning will come. It has to. It's in the cards. -- Bryce Carlson

  2. #2
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Sorry, I don't understand. CVBJ does not compute indices. Variance isn't relavant. What exactly are you doing?
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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    Senior Member Bodarc's Avatar
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    When you set up a player in cvbj you are asked the following:
    1. Select a strategy. I chose FELT
    2. Chose settings and you get all of your rules etc
    3. Choose 'attach strategy" and pick FELT F and to the right you'll see "Display Tables" which gives the indices
    That is where I got the indices from cvbj

    Sorry I didn't mean variance as you are assuming. I meant the count to vary from basic strategy or the index. My poor explanation.
    Play within your bankroll, pick your games with care and learn everything you can about the game. The winning will come. It has to. It's in the cards. -- Bryce Carlson

  4. #4
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    CVBJ does not include double-deck indices as very few books include them. CVData is more accurate.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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    Senior Member Bodarc's Avatar
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    So if I set up 6 Deck on CVData, they should agree with the ones on cvbj?
    Play within your bankroll, pick your games with care and learn everything you can about the game. The winning will come. It has to. It's in the cards. -- Bryce Carlson

  6. #6
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Yep. If you set it up with the exact same parameters.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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    "Sorry I didn't mean variance as you are assuming. I meant the count to vary from basic strategy or the index. My poor explanation."

    Call these "playing departures" or "departures from basic strategy."

    Don

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    Senior Member Bodarc's Avatar
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    ok thanks Norm

    Got ya Don
    Play within your bankroll, pick your games with care and learn everything you can about the game. The winning will come. It has to. It's in the cards. -- Bryce Carlson

  9. #9
    Senior Member Bodarc's Avatar
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    Well I can't get them to match but no matter. I guess I've been using the wrong indices for 6 months and they've been doing very well. I think I might just keep them. LOL jk

    Now if I take 60 indices and reduce them to 40 by grouping close indices ie 12V2 is 7 and 12v3 is 5 and I set them both at 6 ( I think the correct term is 'granularity scale'). In the overall scheme of things, will there be a noticeable difference for a casual player who plays once or twice a week, say for 150 - 200 hrs a year?
    Play within your bankroll, pick your games with care and learn everything you can about the game. The winning will come. It has to. It's in the cards. -- Bryce Carlson

  10. #10
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Very little difference.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  11. #11
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    The difference is not just from the results of the plays. With more accuracy your optimal bets become larger. If you are betting small stakes the practical bets are the same so rather than betting more the extra becomes lower ROR. If your ROR is too high this is worth keeping intact. If you are playing to a low ROR giving a little up may mean nothing to you. If you are betting larger stakes the difference in optimal bets are also differences in practical bets and the more certainty can be translated into higher bets at the same risk profile. These are all trade offs and mean different things to different people. If you are betting up against a heat barrier raising your top bet isn't practical and if your ROR is also tiny the gain from decrease ROR isn't worth much either. If you are betting high ROR to a small BR you won't be able to raise your practical bets but the lower ROR may mean a lot to you. So the actual value of precise and more indices vary greatly depending on how the gains affect your situation. The gain of more certainty can be betting bigger at the same risk, lower ROR, or a combination of both. Of course you always get the small gains from the plays themselves but how those gains affect all your stats and bets is a matter of choice. The best choice varies with each situation.
    Last edited by Three; 09-07-2014 at 04:01 PM.

  12. #12


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    You may not agree, but it really doesn't matter. Compared to a computer simulation, all the aspects you discuss, and one's entire lifetime of play, is nothing more than a blip on the computer screen. One or two standard deviations of the "superior" manner of playing, compared to the more "simplistic" manner, in all likelihood, wipes out the entire difference. In more brief terms, better lucky than good.

    I have absolutely nothing against people who keep 42 side counts in their head, with a level-62 count (:-)); rather, my objection comes when those people continually explain to us how much more money they're winning over their lifetimes from all this extra effort. It makes most others who read think that the endeavor is worth the trouble, and I don't believe that this is the case. Hence, the Illustrious 18, Norm's REKO, and other attempts to permit counters to play their system perfectly accurately and with ease. And, finally, hence the utter bullshit that was James Grosjean's consummate nonsense in his Exhibit CAA, in regard to the above.

    Don

  13. #13
    Senior Member Bodarc's Avatar
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    Don and Tthree

    Let me explain my position on this and you will understand why I am going through this exercise. I am perfectly content with the ILL18 I have been using and understand there is not much advantage to be gained by a larger number of indices. I am weak in the math of the game, having forgotten 90% of what I used to be very good at because I do not use it in my daily life. I do however enjoy trying to understand the mathematics when I am at home and read and study a lot. It is a very slow process for me. The actual playing of the game really doesn't require any math skills, but understanding the why's of the game does.

    I am doing this exercise for two reasons: 1 To apply the formulas etc from chapter 5 to my count just so I can understand all of it. This is fun to me and sort of a hobby. 2. To use CVData and the other products so that I become very familiar with them.

    Those are the two reasons I am going through this process. Now Don, if you will mail me Wong's "Nevada Blackjack, July 83, p 110" you will make my life much easier and also a new copy of Blackjack Attack because I am wearing the cover off of this one.

    On a side note, I was playing a 2D quarter game the other night and a 12V5 appeared. I laid my cards face up and told the dealer to hit since it was a low count. He said "You want to hit that 12 against my five? I said "Well that 5 is a bust hand and all I have to do is get above it!" (Complete jibberish). He shook his head and dealt my card. As it turned out I did win the hand but in his mind I was a complete idiot and couldn't possibly be an AP . I think one of the main advantage of indices is in cover also. Just a passing thought.
    Play within your bankroll, pick your games with care and learn everything you can about the game. The winning will come. It has to. It's in the cards. -- Bryce Carlson

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