player vs player blackjack - vsJack.com

**vsJack** · 08-14-2012, 06:05 AM

Hi,

My name is David. I am part of a new company that has built and released a beta version of a new blackjack format called vsJack. The game follows all the rules of basic blackjack with two changes:

Everyone takes turn being the dealer, there is no house
The dealer plays however they want, there are no dealer rules

It is rake based and, just like in poker where the dealer button rotates around the table, the dealer position rotates. We shuffle the deck after every “deal”, so we don’t keep a shoe. Our RNG is certified by NMi based in the UK.

In this format the house is not trying to stop you from winning. We just want players to have the best experience possible. So, unlike B&M casinos and online casinos, all of you are welcome. We would really like to see how serious blackjack players will work out the best way to play the game.

We are trying to work out how to keep developing the game. At the moment you can double on 7 to 11 but if the dealer doesn’t have to stand on 17 and hit 16 doubling doesn’t offer the same advantage does it? You can split cards that are exactly the same (like two Jacks but not Queen - Jack) but maybe players should be able to split all cards? Should we try playing with 6 decks?

We are planning on having tournaments and are looking for feedback on building them. We are even looking at spread bets during hands.

We want the game to get better and better. Please log in and take a look at www.vsjack.com. All feedback is great.

Thanks for your time,
David

**Some background:

The software has been built by a group of online gaming veterans including people from ongame, Jadestone, bodog, and bwin and we have top security and fraud people making sure that systems are stable and the games cannot be manipulated.

We keep our players’ funds separate from operating funds in an account at HSBC’s Malta branch and take pride in providing top customer service and quick cash outs. We know what players want, we are all card players ourselves.

**Norm** · 08-14-2012, 06:18 AM

Technically, this is SPAM. I allowed it because: 1.) He asked in advance if he could post it. 2.) It could be interesting if the rake is not outrageous. Obviously, strategies are different. This gives pros a much better chance, particularly against idiots — and online players often qualify as such.

**vsJack** · 08-14-2012, 06:26 AM

Thanks Norm. I think this could open up the game of blackjack for serious blackjack players the way poker did when it went online. Look forward to any feedback you guys have on the game or anything else.

**RWM** · 08-14-2012, 08:27 AM

Reminds me of Be The Dealer - one of the early online gaming sites. You should allow doubling on ANY 2 cards.

How is this going to be legal in the US? Or are you guys just hoping? How much is the rake going to be?

**Norm** · 08-14-2012, 08:30 AM

I think this is a much better concept than Be The Dealer.

**RWM** · 08-14-2012, 08:33 AM

Yes agree. I also didn't think BTD dealt a square game when you took the dealer side. This could be like banking games in CA card rooms without all the cheating. They are going to make the software to deal honestly right? Is Russ Hamilton involved in the company?

**vsJack** · 08-14-2012, 08:53 AM

Yes! Double on any two cards is a good idea. How do you think it would change the play? What about splitting all cards?

We are all veterans from the gaming industry and we are not going to offer real money games in the US until the market is regulated. Sorry. We want to build a real product for the long term, not a quick crash and burn thing.

Rake is based on the pot. It's 0.5% for heads up, 1% for 3 to 4 players, and 1.5% for 5 and 6 players.

**RWM** · 08-14-2012, 09:46 AM

You should be able to split all pairs, including non-matching 10s ie. split a king and a jack.

But if there is no real money what are you raking from? I understand you have to wait until laws change but this will be real money for more enlightened countries right?

So say I am at a table with 6 other people. I am the house or dealer and the other 6 each bet $100. You rake 1% of what? If the hand is a push is there a rake? What if people double and split a lot and I don't have the bank to cover all the bets, what happens?

Maybe all this is jumping the gun but I am interested. When is this rolling out for real money in other countries?

**RWM** · 08-14-2012, 09:50 AM

I just looked at your video. So if I am the dealer, and the player doubles on 11 and say catches a 9 making 20, I am allowed to now hit my hard 19 as the dealer to try to beat him. I don't think that is going to go over well. You should use normal blackjack rules.

**lurppis** · 08-14-2012, 11:58 AM

I might just be tired, but I don't think the game is particularly clear from the video. If the objective (as in traditional BJ) is to beat the dealer's total, then I presume each wager is a wager made against the dealer - in other words, if you're playing this game and the dealer button is on you, the amount of money you have to risk is determined by the other players. Correct? Or does everyone have to flat bet?

Also, if the dealer gets to choose when to hit or stand, then they have to choose which players to try and beat. Does this create a potential collusion problem?

Originally Posted by RWM

I just looked at your video. So if I am the dealer, and the player doubles on 11 and say catches a 9 making 20, I am allowed to now hit my hard 19 as the dealer to try to beat him. I don't think that is going to go over well. You should use normal blackjack rules.

The dealer button rotates every hand, so whatever advantage the dealer has is shared equally between all players. I think it makes sense for the game to differ from blackjack here. It makes the strategy much more complicated on both sides.

PS: This game sounds really interesting. I will be looking to play it for real money in Australia if I get the opportunity. I think single-deck is the way to go, because it gives the players a lot more information and makes the game more interesting.

My one fear is that since it is a game of perfect information (unlike poker, where players' hands are hidden) and each game only consists of a handful of potential moves (unlike, say, chess, where games are longer and there are lots of moves you could make each turn) it may turn out to be too easily solvable.

**vsJack** · 08-14-2012, 02:21 PM

You can play at vsjack for real money in all markets that don't have laws against it. There are a bunch of countries you can access real money games from. Just not the US, or France, Italy, Spain, Denmark for now. We will get licenses there as well.

No rake on a pushed hand. The rake is based on the bets, so if you both bet €1 we would rake the €2 pot.

We will have rake limits when we have bigger betting levels. Right now the highest level is €5. We will add more when it makes sense.

**vsJack** · 08-14-2012, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by RWM

I just looked at your video. So if I am the dealer, and the player doubles on 11 and say catches a 9 making 20, I am allowed to now hit my hard 19 as the dealer to try to beat him. I don't think that is going to go over well. You should use normal blackjack rules.

This is one of the points we really worked on. If you play with regular dealer rules (which we did for a long time when we were testing) the dealer position becomes very mechanical. It makes the play as "players" more similar to casino blackjack but the play as dealer is stiff. When you allow the dealer to play however they want the dealer position becomes fun to play again.

I think if you played a few rounds, even if its play money, you will see what I mean. As a casual player playing the dealer position like this is more exciting and gives me a feeling of freedom. The interesting part is that it opens the door for sub-optimal play as well. Which is good for the casual player (more fun) and good for the "pros" (obvious reasons).

We have watched players who just fell onto the site try the game and they adjust to playing as dealer this way very quickly. If you play a few rounds like that the game doesn't feel right when you go back to playing with dealer rules. And I personally prefer the game without dealer rules when I am playing as a "player". You try to work out how the dealer will play and that adds a lot to the game.

But I would really like to hear what you think after testing the game RWN. And, we can add tables with dealer rules so that if people want that they could chose to play at those tables. And if those are the most popular its an easy switch, so we aren't fascists about the game at all.

**seriousplayer** · 08-14-2012, 08:55 PM

Yes, than we will have to reinvent the strategies to beat the game. Somehow it occurs to me that using card counting will no longer be effective anymore since will not only need to beat the dealer but also the other players and rotate to be dealers. I don't feel comfortable playing this game because I don't know the Optimal playing strategies for it. I am concerned of this game because it occurs as a negative expectation game to me.

What are the odds of this game?