At a casino I play at, sometimes when there is a mistake, they will allow everyone to play out the hand. If you lose, you push, and if you win, you win.
My question is, how do I devise a strategy for this?
Some plays are obvious: you still split 88 v. 7, double 11 v. 5, etc.
But what if I have a stiff hand? Should I double 15 v. 10? Or 5 v. 5?
The Cash Cow.
At first I thought that this is the the same situation as playing a free bet coupon or what Grosjean calls a "Funny Chip". He listed some strategy deviations for this in his article: http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/...ouponsbjfo.pdf
But I think now that this is somewhat different. While Grosjean's article does assume that doubles and splits are made with live money (same as this situation), it also assumes that this live money can be lost if the hand it is bet on loses.
It's pretty clear what would happen on a doubled, single hand in your situation. What happens with split hands? Does each hand individually win or push, or do you get an overall win/push across all split hands?
"But what if I have a stiff hand? Should I double 15 v. 10? Or 5 v. 5?"
Double both. The 15 v. 10 is a poor example, because, with composition-dependent BS, you aren't going to hit a three-card 16 v. 10 anyway, so, whether you hit or double, it's the same one card that you're drawing. So, it's a no-brainer to try to win double, since you can't lose.
With 5 v. 5, obviously, by doubling and drawing a single card only, you lower your overall win rate on the hand, but not by enough to justify not doubling. If you hit, the e.v. is just slightly negative, indicating that you win more than 49% of the time, which becomes your e.v. (.49+ units) since, again, you can't lose. If you double, forfeiting the right to hit again, you will surely win less frequently (I think it's about 42% of the time, but I wouldn't swear to it), but you win .42 doubled, or .84, which isn't close to the hitting e.v. of +.49.
Don
Sometimes, this type of play can be viewed as 'taking a shot' by the casino. They think they are being decent by handling mistakes in this manner and that you are abusing it and taking advantage of them. Something to think about when doing this at a local casino.
I was playing a casino here in Vegas not long ago, where the dealer hit her soft 18 with a 10 value card. Of course she called the pit over, who said the 10 card would be the next card out. So, I immediately attempted to up increase my wager big time for the next round. The pit guy then said to burn the card, which I am not even sure he had the right to do. I ended my session shortly after that. On my very next trip to this casino, I was backed off. Now, I can't swear these two incidents were related, as this is a very sweaty casino south of the strip area. But despite their reputation, I had been playing there regularly without any issues prior to this.
Last edited by KJ; 09-04-2014 at 09:43 AM.
I went easy on them for the reason you stated on two different occasions. Both times the Floor left shaking his head saying he would have doubled if he were in my shoes (next card info mid hand). I don't take it easy on them anymore.Originally Posted by KJ
This is a gift to the player around here as the regs say the card must be burned. I can see why he burned it after you looked a gift horse in the mouth. It is probably what he was supposed to do and was doing you a favor by not burning the card. But you:
Which could make it look like collusion to not follow the regs. You could have cost him his job. He probably decided his tolerance for you was used up and initiated the backoff. I am surprised you would make such a blunder KJ. You put him in a position where he needed to both burn the card and initiate a backoff for his own job security.
As for the premise that you are getting a free roll, not all suits give it to you so knowing the suit's tendencies that is making the decision is important for being sure you get a free shot. It is a gift in most jurisdictions rather than the regs. I was surprised how many gifts they give you after learning the regs so most of the time I am mum and enjoy the benefits of their generosity. If they try to give me less than the regs require I definitely speak up.
Yes, T3, I did make a blunder.....thanx for pointing that out. I do occasionally make mistakes.I was aware of it as soon as it happened, that is why I left almost immediately. And my suspicion were more or less confirmed during my next visit.
Yes, I made a mistake and it cost me the temporary loss of this store and probably the permanent loss of that store on a certain shift. But this is exactly why I decided to share this experience, thinking it might help someone else avoid a similar mistake. Although what Moo described isn't exactly the same, it could be viewed as 'taking a shot' or trying to take advantage of the pit guy that is doing you a favor. And if that is a local store, it probably isn't worth it.
Last edited by KJ; 09-04-2014 at 09:54 PM.
Do you push if you bust, too? I can understand pushing any lesser totals than the dealer, but I would expect the house to take any busted bets.
Important clarification before doubling down on your hard 19.
May the cards fall in your favor.
On the one hand, that's obvious.
On the other hand, I can see that the house might differentiate between losing before the dealer plays vs losing after. They may well take any busts as usual, but then push any losers at the settlement.
The strategy decisions are somewhat different. If you lose busted hands, you shouldn't hit or double a stiff, period, since any unbusted hand will push.
I would look at doubling any soft 13-19 and any hard 8-11, including a natural if allowed. Also look at splitting everything (except 5's) vs 2-7.
May the cards fall in your favor.
I think the simplest way to determine the strategy would be to follow the process that Shackleford used in his recent video (http://youtu.be/jCF-Btu5ZCk?list=UUN...iUIv7U_CJcyLQw) to calculate the infinite deck basic strategy, except instead of calculating the EV by taking p_win-p_loss, you'd just have EV=p_win. From there, the rest of the process should be similar.
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