How long can you holecard?

[Pokerplayer]

I played poker for a few hours today at my local joint and on the way out took a look at the 3 card poker tables. I saw a dealer that flashed one hole card on 5/5 hands and a four card poker dealer who flashed one every time I saw her deal as well.

I needed to leave otherwise I would have stayed to verify that the game was as good as it seemed. My question is: how often does someone get discovered on a solo hole card play and if I was playing unrated do you think I would be trespassed?

This is my local poker joint so I don't want to lose my privileges and I probably wouldn't be able to bet much more than $20-30 a hand. I'm not sure if it's worth losing the best card room in the area for a low level play.

Anyone else have experience getting backed off for holecarding? Is it worth giving this game a shot?

Sorry that this is in the general forum but I'm not a full member.

[Pete]

Until they correct the dealer. Don't look like you're hole carding. Try not to let other players see what you're playing and folding. Nothing more scary than some civilian see you muck a king and commenting about it at the table. If their lifting it as high as you say you shouldn't have a problem. But at $20-30 a hand you're driving a Ferrari at 55 mph. You should be well bankrolled because the variance is crazy.

[Pokerplayer]

Yeah I kind of figured it wasn't worth it with the limited upside and possibility of losing my poker playing privilege. Guess I was curious how often solo hole carder a get caught or backed off at 3cp.

[bigplayer]

Yeah I kind of figured it wasn't worth it with the limited upside and possibility of losing my poker playing privilege. Guess I was curious how often solo hole carder a get caught or backed off at 3cp.

I'd suggest you check out Abram Alexander's excellent Kindle Book available at Amazon. Casino reaction to hole carders can be quite nasty, I'd suggest you tread very carefully early on in your career and practice until you can sit there and not look like you're staring or practically laying down in your chair.

[Meistro123]

Even at $30 a hand it's not bad, probably around 40-50$ an hour depending on how quick the game is. I'd definitely play.

[tiny]

Unless the place is known to be intolerant of (any) action, betting $20 on 3CP won't bring that much attention. Just make sure you keep your chin off the table and refrain from reacting right as you get a peak at the dealer's hole card.

Since it's an establishment that you like to play at for other reasons, you'll have weigh whether a potential back off is worth the trade off of making money hole carding versus playing at your favorite poker spot. Only you can decide what is "worth" more.

The variance of that game is pretty disgusting even though the edge is higher than counting. The strategy is simple but make sure you learn it.

[biggg]

Lifespan is higher than counting at almost any casino. 3 card is kind of a waste of time though, there are far better games out there.

[Pokerplayer]

I know holecarding is accepted as legal in Nevada but this is in another state. How can I determine if it is legal. Are there any states where hole carding has been ruled illegal?

[biggg]

Hole carding is completely legal anywhere as long as you don't use a device. Most people are hesitant to discuss it as its far more lucrative and low heat than bj yet games are limited.

My experience is that after spending time scouting and bad reads it is not nearly as great as the numbers suggest and often you can generate more expectation just plopping down and counting per hour spent. But there are casinos with consistently great games, at those playing the HC is what you want to be doing.

[Nyne]

Whether its worth playing at those stakes depends partly on your poker win rate. If you aren't able to distinguish paint cards perfectly, you'll be making maybe $30-40/hr, depending on game speed. If you are able to identify paint perfectly, you may be able to make $40-60/hr. then you've got to account for break dealers where you are either playing a negative game or leaving the table for that 20 minutes. Leaving every break can start to look obvious eventually, but even in that best case, if the breaker doesn't flash, it cuts into your hourly rate by about 25%, depending on how long the main dealer is on between breaks. So you're looking at $30 or $45/hr on a reasonably quick game, depending on whether you can distinguish paint cards. If you make $15/hr at poker, maybe it's worth taking the risk, maybe it's not. If you make $30+/hr at poker, it's probably not worth the risk of getting barred for roughly the same money you can make at poker. Just some food for thought.

[Nyne]

Regarding legality, you are always taking some chance if you are in a jurisdiction where it hasn't yet been tried in the courts. I'm not aware of any jurisdiction that has a specific law that would make hole carding illegal, but you never know what a prosecutor is going to come up with. In states that have a hole carding case on record, like Nevada, you can use that case as precedent to support your case if you ever went to trial. In state XYZ, you can't use a Nevada case to your benefit. In tribal court, all bets are off. There was a case in tribal court in Michigan a year or two ago where the holecarders were found guilty of cheating. Short version, there is good reason to believe that hole carding is legal in the US, particularly in nontribal casinos, but it is not without some legal risk.

[Pokerplayer]

Thanks for the good info Nyne. I might do some scouting at other local joints to see if they're as exploitable to save my poker game.

[Solo player]

OCP is a great game to hone your skills at HCing. Just be prepared to get a LOT of heat. Starting with other players, dealers and the floor. Because in order for this game to be even marginally profitable you cannot (There are exceptions) make the pairplus side bet or any of the other various side bets. Virtually every square who plays this game makes the pairplus bonus bet and you will really stick out by not making this bet. Hence the comments about your play. This game will give you a good chance to work on your casino comportment.

Occasionally if your playing in a pit that has a fairly sharp floor, not playing the side bets is a quick tip off as to what you are doing. And instead of giving you the boot they will simply "fix" the dealer. If you really are interested in HCing learn the OCP strategy which will take about 5 minutes or less. If you like doing it you will quickly move on to bigger and better games. Good Luck!