Oklahoma Blackjack? Any directory which shows the "no ante" places?

[Nyne]

Well, Ideally you'd want to keep them below 1%, but sometimes when you add in the luxury of being able to get out of your hometown on a mini vacation and relax as well as get a few hands in, its okay to go behind any predetermined threshold of % of EV which is nothing more than arbitrary at best.

Of course, the lower the better, but the 50% number I gave was not arbitrary. If your trip expenses exceed half of your EV, your expected utility for the trip is negative. If every trip you take has expenses of 51% of your EV, and your bets are otherwise sized properly for your bankroll, your risk of ruin is 100%. Expenses are a major risk to your bankroll and must be carefully managed.

[Exoter175]

LOL Exoter, I think you just challenged the wrong one.

Wasn't exactly a challenge, more like heightened sarcasm at the guy who clearly missed the point earlier about the OP making a case for "just getting out of oklahoma", which implies that EV takes a backseat to just about everything at this point, though the OP would like to find a +EV game when he gets where he's going. Get it?

Of course, the lower the better, but the 50% number I gave was not arbitrary. If your trip expenses exceed half of your EV, your expected utility for the trip is negative. If every trip you take has expenses of 51% of your EV, and your bets are otherwise sized properly for your bankroll, your risk of ruin is 100%. Expenses are a major risk to your bankroll and must be carefully managed.

Unless I read that wrong, you didn't give me a 50% number, you gave me a 25% number.

[Three]

Nyne is making a point that you should keep expenses as far below 25% of EV as possible and the point that expenses higher than 50% of EV gives 100% RoR. That no man's land between the two is best avoided.

[Exoter175]

Nyne is making a point that you should keep expenses as far below 25% of EV as possible and the point that expenses higher than 50% of EV gives 100% RoR. That no man's land between the two is best avoided.

Which again, is a moot point in the context of the guy wanting to get "out of Oklahoma".

Believe it or not guys, you can take a trip out of your home states just to relax and have a vacation, it doesn't have to be all EV all the time. I'm about to take my second vacation this year lol.

[Exoter175]

Or move to Las Vegas...and "live" on vacation.

That's the goal, for me. Probably going to take a few years before I'm comfortable uprooting myself though :/

[Finrod]

There are enough casinos in Oklahoma paying the ante for the players to put in as any hours as most casual players would want to. and even enough for casual counters like myself. The trick is to find the places and not wear out your welcome, which has not been too difficult. Many of the casinos vary their no ante promotion dates and times, so it takes some effort to keep up with it. I find that a simple phone call takes care of it and gives the most accurate information. Just ask for the blackjack pit when you call.

Some places are a little sweaty, but most are clueless. As for a reason not to travel elsewhere, there are some places in OK with good rules, good pen, no antes and are very good opportunities. Again, just takes some scouting.

Regarding why they might be sweaty, it seems that the casinos are allowed to take some portion of the table "hold" (including antes) as profit while some portion goes to the state and the rest stays in the players pool. The players pool must be returned to the players in the form of promotions. So smaller casinos may be more paranoid about the hold as it can impact their profits and even impact their ability to follow through on the offered promotions if they get hit too hard at the tables.

[Nyne]

if your trip expenses exceed half of your EV, you will go broke if you take that type of trip consistently. You really want to keep expenses below 25% of EV if possible.

Unless I read that wrong, you didn't give me a 50% number, you gave me a 25% number.

Half is 50%. That's the key part of my post. The 25% number, admittedly, is somewhat arbitrary, but the closer you are to 50%, the higher your risk of ruin goes, approaching 100%. You don't want to be close. And I get that the OP would enjoy going elsewhere and may get external value from that. Vacations are great. But my view is vacations should be paid for out of other funds. The mathematical truth is that if you consistently take more than half of your EV out of your bankroll, you will lose. I just don't want someone to look at a trip and think, well, my EV is enough to cover the hotels and gas, so why not? If you have any interest in playing long term without replenishing your bankroll, that line of thinking is bankroll suicide. If you have funds to replenish, I would think you have funds to cover the vacation cost separately from bankroll funds. If you aren't considering it a vacation, it's a bad business move.

[Exoter175]

Half is 50%. That's the key part of my post. The 25% number, admittedly, is somewhat arbitrary, but the closer you are to 50%, the higher your risk of ruin goes, approaching 100%. You don't want to be close. And I get that the OP would enjoy going elsewhere and may get external value from that. Vacations are great. But my view is vacations should be paid for out of other funds. The mathematical truth is that if you consistently take more than half of your EV out of your bankroll, you will lose. I just don't want someone to look at a trip and think, well, my EV is enough to cover the hotels and gas, so why not? If you have any interest in playing long term without replenishing your bankroll, that line of thinking is bankroll suicide. If you have funds to replenish, I would think you have funds to cover the vacation cost separately from bankroll funds. If you aren't considering it a vacation, it's a bad business move.

I'd like to take a moment to recognize your admittance to the fact that your number was deemed arbitrary, and that we've come full circle now, despite the fact that you've brought up a point that currently wasn't up for discussion, to argue it against individuals who were discussing things like "Getting out of Oklahoma", before interjecting your point.

Anyways, I'm not one for arbitrary numbers, I'm one for real world experiences and facts. And the facts are that the guy has zero heat to travel up to KC or STL where red chippers fly under the radar like hotcakes against beatable games with "meh" rules, and you're talking a two day trip costing him maybe $200-300 which includes an exorbitantly expensive hotel room, should he decide to stay "fancy" instead of on the budget. Which is what we had discussed earlier in this thread, or the inverse thereof.

Now I'll tell you what Nyne, you tell me what the +EV is of H17, DAS, DOA, RSA4, 6D 85% pen, with an exposed bottom card pre-cut, and exposed bottom card post-cut. 5/1000 stakes, modest 1-8 spread with a modified 2x6 spread at TC4, and 2x12 @ TC5 or greater, against a dealer who can deal a steady 280 HPH without breaking a sweat, and about 370HPH heads up.

The game just might be worth traveling to.

[Nyne]

I'd like to take a moment to recognize your admittance to the fact that your number was deemed arbitrary

Idk what point you are trying to make here. I said if your expenses exceed half of your EV, you will go broke. Your risk of ruin is 100%. That is a statement of fact. I said that "you want to keep your expenses below 25%, if possible." Thats clearly a suggestion. I'm obviously not staring the 25% as a hard threshold.

and that we've come full circle now, despite the fact that you've brought up a point that currently wasn't up for discussion

You are the one who originally brought up a point that was not under discussion. Namely, they were discussing options for play in Oklahoma, not Missouri, but moving on...

to argue it against individuals who were discussing things like "Getting out of Oklahoma", before interjecting your point.

The OP said nothing of the sort. This was just a discussion between you and marriedputter.

Anyways, I'm not one for arbitrary numbers, I'm one for real world experiences and facts. And the facts are that the guy has zero heat to travel up to KC or STL where red chippers fly under the radar like hotcakes against beatable games with "meh" rules, and you're talking a two day trip costing him maybe $200-300 which includes an exorbitantly expensive hotel room, should he decide to stay "fancy" instead of on the budget. Which is what we had discussed earlier in this thread, or the inverse thereof.

What you had talked about was needing to play 12 hrs in 2 days to have EV equal to expenses, and as far as I could tell, you would expect to average 8-9 hours per day and show an expected win of about 1.5x expenses. I'm just trying to help. Making that trip is a bad business move. Yes, you show a modest expected win, but the variance you have to endure to get that win will eat your bankroll alive. This is not "arbitrary numbers", this is well established bankroll risk management math. If you want to ignore it and assume you'll continue to win 83% of your sessions, nothing is stopping you, but your monstrous 53 sessions of empirical data don't change the math.

Now I'll tell you what Nyne, you tell me what the +EV is of H17, DAS, DOA, RSA4, 6D 85% pen, with an exposed bottom card pre-cut, and exposed bottom card post-cut. 5/1000 stakes, modest 1-8 spread with a modified 2x6 spread at TC4, and 2x12 @ TC5 or greater, against a dealer who can deal a steady 280 HPH without breaking a sweat, and about 370HPH heads up.

The game just might be worth traveling to.

The $1000 max is completely irrelevant to a red chipper. And I have no idea what a "modest 1-8 spread" that goes to 2x12 even means. An exposed bottom card post cut isn't worth much at all. One more card of penetration is nothing to write home about. An exposed bottom card precut can be worth a lot if you know how to capitalize on it (and have the necessary skills), but if you are just cutting it into or out of play, it isn't huge. Roughly a .1% improvement. The best part of that game for a counter would be the speed, but still the cost of travel for a red chipper is a major limitation.

[Exoter175]

Idk what point you are trying to make here. I said if your expenses exceed half of your EV, you will go broke. Your risk of ruin is 100%. That is a statement of fact. I said that "you want to keep your expenses below 25%, if possible." Thats clearly a suggestion. I'm obviously not staring the 25% as a hard threshold.

The point I'm making there, is establishing the fact that you used an arbitrary number to setup your point, of which nobody was making until you interjected. Thus defending my point of arbitrary numbers that was contested, and circling your argument of trip expenses over 50% EV, of which nobody here was speaking about.

You are the one who originally brought up a point that was not under discussion. Namely, they were discussing options for play in Oklahoma, not Missouri, but moving on...

After I pointed out that playing an ANTE game isn't even an option in what we do, and that if he was forced to play nothing but ANTE games, he SHOULD travel to a nearby area (KC, STL) as an example that have better options. A point brought up by the discussion of the ANTE games itself, as I misunderstood the OP in his discussion of ANTE games, he and I went further into the traveling aspect of avoiding those games. A point everyone should take to heart, IMO.

The OP said nothing of the sort. This was just a discussion between you and marriedputter.

Were marriedputter and I not the individuals I was referring to when I made that statement? Was the OP not also involved in similar discussion at the onset of this thread?

What you had talked about was needing to play 12 hrs in 2 days to have EV equal to expenses, and as far as I could tell, you would expect to average 8-9 hours per day and show an expected win of about 1.5x expenses. I'm just trying to help. Making that trip is a bad business move. Yes, you show a modest expected win, but the variance you have to endure to get that win will eat your bankroll alive. This is not "arbitrary numbers", this is well established bankroll risk management math. If you want to ignore it and assume you'll continue to win 83% of your sessions, nothing is stopping you, but your monstrous 53 sessions of empirical data don't change the math.

What we were talking about, was getting out of Oklahoma to a nearby area where he "could" play for a couple days, as established by his statement about being a more part time player than compared to myself, further established by his "get out of oklahoma" talk. This then carries to my point made earlier about EV not being the end all be all in this context. Ideally priority #1 is gettinng out #2 relaxing #3 SCORE.

The $1000 max is completely irrelevant to a red chipper. And I have no idea what a "modest 1-8 spread" that goes to 2x12 even means. An exposed bottom card post cut isn't worth much at all. One more card of penetration is nothing to write home about. An exposed bottom card precut can be worth a lot if you know how to capitalize on it (and have the necessary skills), but if you are just cutting it into or out of play, it isn't huge. Roughly a .1% improvement. The best part of that game for a counter would be the speed, but still the cost of travel for a red chipper is a major limitation.

You failed to answer my question, opting to sidestep it completely.

In fact, do me a favor and go make a new post or something, because right now you're just pulling a ZK and arguing to argue, go make a thread about your 50% EV rule, and leave the Oklahoma talk to those of us nearest, yeah?

[Three]

How it is applicable to OK. The ante is an expense to playing BJ in OK. It is about a $15/hr expense at 60 hands an hour and a $25/hr expense at 100/hr. You need an EV of at least $60-100 an hour respectively to make that expense worth it. If your wonging style has you playing 20% of hands the expense drops to $12-20 an hour respectively. Then you consider traveling as an alternative. You have travel costs and if you stay overnight to get more hours in you have the cost of lodging and meals. You need to compare the remaining EV after expenses to see if the travel is better than wonging the ante game.

KC or STL where red chippers fly under the radar like hotcakes against beatable games with "meh" rules, and you're talking a two day trip costing him maybe $200-300

First of all, I wouldn't drive up the street for "meh" rules. Second you get maybe 16 hours of play in your overnight using your expenses you are looking at an expense cost of $12.5- $18 an hour to play a far worse game than some of the OK games. You can still play ES games in OK. Some casinos have ante-free days or times of day while others have no ante for large enough bets. Some waive the ante if you play rated. Knowing your casinos and when to play in OK, just like scouting for when the conditions you want are anywhere else, is the key to success.

against a dealer who can deal a steady 280 HPH without breaking a sweat, and about 370HPH heads up.

This cracked me up. I have very rarely seen a dealer that can come close to this. Most are so mistake prone they get fired or moved to another game. You better be just as quick at catching their mistakes that you don't give your edge away to the dealer taking your winning bets. Correcting the mistakes slows the game to a crawl. Floor, we need you again. Can you check the last hand in the discard tray.

[Bodarc]

LOL Exoter you are a trip! Better go back and have another snort, I think your punch is wearing off.

[Three]

Thus defending my point of arbitrary numbers that was contested, and circling your argument of trip expenses over 50% EV, of which nobody here was speaking about.

If you are talking about taking a trip to increase your edge how could this not be the most important part of the discussion. Your edge will be defined by expenses. When I was a red chipper I planned casino visits around travel I would be making whether I played or not. That made my travel expense 0. I got to play some great games that were distant from where I live. I played one promo on about a half dozen trips that gave me an off the top advantage and made me a temporary green chipper. That was the only trip that I traveled the 4 hours each way for and the hotel expense on some trips to play 8 hours with an off the top advantage. It was well worth it. I made in those 8 hours each time what my EV was for 100 hours of red chipping. All my other play was centered around travel for doctors visits, fishing or hunting trips and trips to train and learn from advanced APs.

I had only one casino I visited regularly on trips to just play and it was only at particular times when conditions suited my BR. If I drove around the tolls my trip expense was about $25 and my EV was about $200/trip (trip expenses was 12.5% of EV) and my long term ROR not including expenses was less than 1% for that casino. I paid my expenses out of pocket not out of my BR. I could also save a small amount filling my gas tank and buying things I need with no sales tax and/or at cheaper prices which chipped away at the trip expenses. When I restocked my liquor cabinet or purchased expensive outdoor gear both at cheaper prices than my local retailers as well as no taxes the trip expenses became +EV because the trip saved me more money than it cost. If you are going to make it from red to green chip all those little things they say aren't worth much can make all the difference between making it to green chip or busting your BR. If you don't consider these things you are really setting yourself up to fail.