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Thread: Oklahoma Blackjack? Any directory which shows the "no ante" places?

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    Senior Member MJGolf's Avatar
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    Oklahoma Blackjack? Any directory which shows the "no ante" places?

    OK, looked at the South/Midwest areas and reports on conditions. Used Oklahoma as a search tool. Most of everything looks pretty dated. I did notice that several threads discussed the abhorrent ante (or rake) that tribes are required to charge in Oklahoma. So I thought I would post this from Mike Shackleford had to say about computation of increased house edge on indian casinos.

    "I was visiting an Indian casino the other day where the blackjack minimum bet was $2, but for each bet, they asked for an additional 25 cents (they did this by giving you 4 special 25 cent chips for each dollar chip you had) so essentially, you bet $2.25 to win back $2. While I was still able to walk away with a bit of a profit, I was wondering if there was a quick and easy way to calculate just how much of a house edge this "commission" gave them? I know that compared to dealer hitting on soft 17, it's gotta be a killer.

    SM
    The total house edge is [fee + (house edge)*(bet)]/[fee + bet]. Let's say the house edge is 0.8%. Then the house edge including the fee would be [$0.25 + $2.00*0.008][$0.25 + $2.00] = 11.82%.

    However, a quick and easy estimate is to simply divide the fee by the bet as the increase in house edge due to the fee."
    Reference url: http://wizardofodds.com/ask-the-wiza...ck/house-edge/

    My question is: Does anyone know a place that reports WHICH casinos DON'T have an ante? Or do I have to scout them out individually. I know one place in Shawnee that NEVER requires an ante and they use that prominently in their advertising. I see that there are a few people here from Oklahoma so wanted to ask their advice. Any assistance would truly be appreciated.

    Having made my share of trips to Vegas this year (2); to Tunica (3) and to Shreveport/Bossier (1), I would like to stay a little closer to home to work on my skills. BUT avoid a house edge (even if these games are supposedly "player banked") that is too high for my "green chip" betting.

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    For an AP, there's another way to compute just how much an ante hurts you. If you look at the value we get from card counting or other AP play, one of the statistics about our earning power is certainty equivalent, or how much of a flat rate we would accept in exchange for the string of wins and losses we will experience from that game. If you are betting optimally, CE will be equal to half of your EV. In an ante game, your CE is equal to the base CE minus the hourly cost of the ante ($50 per spot per hour for some places).

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    Senior Member MJGolf's Avatar
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    Hey Nyne: Maybe one of these days I can learn more probability to understand the math a little better. Got drowned at Calculus.....did quite well through Algebra II and Pre-Calc. But never really understood the real math on probability.

    In any event, what you said makes sense that CE is equal to about half of EV and can cost me about $50/hour if I play the ante tables.......as in Hard Rock or WinStar, Grand Casino......most nights. Bears out in personal perspective and experience as in example played for a few hours with a buddy at Hard Rock. We were both down about $200 for the night when we compared status. Realized it was all ante losses. Hits home hard sometimes even when you are only playing for entertainment value and to have a few drinks together. I didn't think I had that bad a luck at cards and thought it was a pretty up and down game. Yep, if you take away ante losses (or tax), would have been about even or up a little.

    P.S. I emailed you at gmail address given by a co-associate. Just wanted to let you know. I will set up subscriber access here soon and then can PM here. Just haven't gotten around to it yet but will soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MJGolf View Post
    Maybe one of these days I can learn more probability to understand the math a little better. Got drowned at Calculus.....did quite well through Algebra II and Pre-Calc. But never really understood the real math on probability.
    You don't need calculus. The limit theory lead in to calculus comes in handy to understanding things. For BJ math start with The Theory of Blackjack by Peter Griffin and then go to Blackjack Attack edition 3 by Don Schlesinger. You will get all you need. I suggest working some problems along the way. Give yourself a time to work each problem. After enough reps of a type of problem you start to you start to understand the way everything affects each other. Read the chapter first and then work the problems. It really help me understand the math interactions and have a far better feel for everything.

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    What is your email address? I don't see anything in my inbox.

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    Senior Member metronome's Avatar
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    http://500nations.com/Oklahoma_Casinos.asp
    http://www.americancasinoguide.com/

    Explore both these sites. Follow links to each individual nation/tribe/casinos website and go to promos/events and they will reveal the dates/times of no ante promos.
    “One man’s remorse is another man’s reminiscence.” Ogden Nash

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    Senior Member MJGolf's Avatar
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    Nyne: It didn't get bounced. Try your spam folder if you don't see. I used a gmail syntax for yours and mine is excite.

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    Senior Member MJGolf's Avatar
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    Metronome:
    That's pretty generic but I appreciate the lists. I only know a couple that are offering no ante. One is Downstream which is a little distance away in far NE Oklahoma. Sugarcreek in Hinton is having promo during August that for weekdays no ante. Muscogee Creek Casino in Muskogee (but not sure if one in Tulsa has similar promo) is offering no ante at moment, too. I'm centrally located in state so hoping to find ones closer. I know that Thunderbird has no ante part of weekdays. Riverwind NEVER reduces ante that I have found AND several of tables have CSM's. Though you can ask dealer to hold discards out for awhile without putting them back into machine, not that it matters much. Newcastle says they have the promo on occasion but always there on weekends, so they always charge then. Firelake (the older one in town) had no ante May for the month; went back to ante in July. Don't know about this month.

    If you have additional info, would be appreciative.

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    Senior Member metronome's Avatar
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    MJ, surely you won't play a CSM game?
    “One man’s remorse is another man’s reminiscence.” Ogden Nash

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    Senior Member MJGolf's Avatar
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    I won't say never but not to any extent. We only played CSM machine while I was teaching a friend basic strategy before trip to Vegas. Friendly cute dealer, too..........LOL

    Honestly my total time on CSM's in my entire life is probably an hour max.........hahaha. But I try to teach anyone who is interested basic strategy. And will play anything that technically doesn't matter to them. Many, many people that I have been around want to know how to play blackjack but so few are really willing to put in the time to memorize the entire deal. They claim it's "too hard" or "too much" to remember.........
    Ever wonder WHY there are so MANY casinos and they keep getting bigger?

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    Senior Member bigplayer's Avatar
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    Since OK casinos are required to give back the profits they make from the win on the game itself (and keep only the Ante as their profits) it's a good idea to sign up for a players card everywhere and maybe give a little bit of slot play to get on the mailing list. These casinos will occasionally have drawings and promotions that can be very very good and worth dropping everything for.

    In the meantime, just get a list of all the casinos and then go to the website of each casino to check their promotional info for when no-ante days are. You will also want to check to make sure those casinos have table games....some don't. Beware, even though these casinos aren't supposed to make money on the game (just the ante) they do, for some strange reason, get pissed off at advantage players. It's my guess that some of the tribes are skimming and AP's interfere with that skim. OK has no real gaming commission that I know of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigplayer View Post
    Beware, even though these casinos aren't supposed to make money on the game (just the ante) they do, for some strange reason, get pissed off at advantage players. It's my guess that some of the tribes are skimming and AP's interfere with that skim. OK has no real gaming commission that I know of.
    Maybe the problem is that taking money from them means taking money from the players in their promotions and especially their tournaments. This would mean that a competing casino that sweats counters could offer more in promotions/tournaments than the casinos that give counters free reign. That in turn means less customers and therefore less antes. The skimming could be true too though.
    Those that pay the antes for the customer have more to lose I would imagine.

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    Senior Member MJGolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigplayer View Post
    Since OK casinos are required to give back the profits they make from the win on the game itself (and keep only the Ante as their profits) it's a good idea to sign up for a players card everywhere and maybe give a little bit of slot play to get on the mailing list. These casinos will occasionally have drawings and promotions that can be very very good and worth dropping everything for.

    In the meantime, just get a list of all the casinos and then go to the website of each casino to check their promotional info for when no-ante days are. You will also want to check to make sure those casinos have table games....some don't. Beware, even though these casinos aren't supposed to make money on the game (just the ante) they do, for some strange reason, get pissed off at advantage players. It's my guess that some of the tribes are skimming and AP's interfere with that skim. OK has no real gaming commission that I know of.
    Actually Oklahoma does have a gaming commission of sorts......just called a different agency name. And you are correct in the most part. Tribes are only supposed to make the ante as their income, and the rest is "player banked pool" that is to be returned to the players net of winnings by the players and a small portion for administrative costs.........though I could not locate exactly what that amount was supposed to be. 10% is supposed to be remitted to the state as taxes toward education of the net winnings. See: http://www.ok.gov/OGC/About_Tribal-S...nit/index.html

    Since our Attorney General and Treasurer opine that there is no state enforced payback percentage on slot machines, it's hard to tell how much they actually pay back but their attitude or official position is that the public will control or enforce that as part of private enterprise since if machines are too tight, the public will go play other casinos and it will all be market based in the long run. Hey, who said capitalism and the free markets were dead here? LOL

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