I made a comment in KJ's In the Red thread which was closed about regarding the lack of bankroll as a fault in a person's game. And I believe KJ was interested in responding so I've started this thread so he could have that opportunity.
Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment, I don't think a lack in bankroll is a fault in a persons' game, so much as it is a persons' planning for their game. However, one could easily play a "style" of game, I'll refer to as a ZK game, and do nothing but back count until they see TC3, and then play their normal game from there, and out at TC1. The tradeoff, of course, being that you'll play very few hands at an extremely high heat exposure, but you'll have a very low RoR by comparison to a budget friendly playall spread.
Correct, lack of bankroll isn't a fault. That doesn't even make sense to me. Everyone is welcome on this site and I have learned volumes from players that play lower limit than myself. Playing higher stakes doesn't necessarily translate into more knowledge or playing a stronger game.Originally Posted by ohbehave
But let's face it, a proper bankroll is a necessity to withstand the common and normal swings associated with blackjack and card counting, and achieve any kind of reasonable long-term success in this game. I just get tired of hearing someone who obvious has little experience and can't seem to raise even a modest bankroll required for low level play, to constantly tell us how great he is going to be someday (after he hits the lottery or he makes a fortune trading penny stocks and has a bankroll). And I am going to leave it at that.
Last edited by KJ; 08-07-2014 at 09:32 PM.
Interesting that you bring that up, because from all accounts you and I's games are so similar in longevity and in terms of bankroll, that we've got more than enough to wade through those swings (that we are both currently in and hopefully will dig out of soon), while the "other" one would likely have only a fraction of the required bankroll that he needs to play "his way" at "his stakes".
Now, when I got into "this", I knew what was required both in bankroll, training, and nerve to weather the swings, but I also knew that while I developed into a solid player, I'd need to play lower stakes than desired and "graduate" up. The "other" guy will likely finish the year with at best, 1/10th of my hours played or less, because I'm completely fine with a "graduated" approach to raising my stakes. Bankroll not being an issue at all with any level of play, for me, but its more of a tiered experience goal that I'm going for and will stick to.
There could be some difference in how people look at the bankroll. I look at it as an amount that has been saved through sources other than BJ play. The amount saved to start playing the game. I can see how some who have been playing for years might view the bankroll as a measure of success in the game. I've built my bankroll to x dollars therefore I am a good player.
I don't know what kind of bankroll ZK has, maybe nothing at all, I don't know. I thought I understood that he could play low stakes but doesn't want to expose himself, he would rather wait until he has a bankroll for bigger stakes. That makes sense to me, I think about that in my own game. My comment wasn't about ZK specifically, I don't know anything about him.
Last edited by ohbehave; 08-08-2014 at 06:13 AM.
Anyone that has built a BR from a high RoR small BR will eventually see just how lucky they were to pull it off. You may feel pride that you were on of the lucky few but you should realize no matter how much of the luck was created by you the vast majority of pulling it off was just luck. Luck in how the runs of wins and losses fit together. Big losses for your BR may have been preceded or followed or even bookended by big wins. If the big losses had stacked up in succession as is pretty common in retrospect a longer period of play with the larger BR they would have wiped you out.
It is good to wait to have a proper sized BR but the rub is without some experience dealing with the game and many parts of it that aren't counting you are more likely to make mistakes that cause you to unnecessarily lose your BR even though it is not too risky to start with. A certain amount of experience is a big plus to success once you are properly BRed. There is a proper amount of experience before you want to put yourself at too much risk or exposure at a higher BR. Save and get some experience in. Hopefully your experience will build your BR. I was one of the lucky ones. I built my BR from winnings and feel I made a lot of my "luck" but I truly understand that most of the luck that got me there was totally out of my control.
I had great mentors and listened intently and asked intelligent questions after digesting what they had told me. I learned what game conditions to avoid and seek out independent of rules. I learned how to fly under the radar while maximizing winning potential. And most importantly I learned how to maximize my abilities rather than follow what works for others. Everyone is different and have different abilities and shortcomings to adjust to or capitalize on. Sometimes you can be your worst enemy when you are not honest about what yours are. But fitting your approach to your abilities and deficiencies can maximize your potential gain.
A lack of bankroll is just that. As I began to play blackjack, I always played under funded but didnt know it. Once the knowledge came on how much money I needed to play the games I desired, I committed to never playing another hand of live blackjack until I was properly bankrolled. That time period was 5 years! I would say the biggest benefit to being a card counter for me was actually the success in my personal business which was derived from my desire to have a proper bankroll for blackjack. Until that day comes that you are properly bankrolled, I suggest seeking more education of the game along with a lot of practice.
Overbetting is a fault in a person's game. If they're making bankroll appropriate sized bets for the situation, there's no fault.
There's a guy I see regularly, his big bet is about $13 on a $5 minimum table. I don't think he's overbetting his bankroll, and his pile of chips seems to be growing fairly respectably, even if it does take all day of grinding to get there. He does take strategically timed bathroom breaks.
If used correctly, playing from a small bankroll should be an excellent training tool. A $25 mistake on a $1000 bankroll hurts a lot more than a $100 mistake on a $20000 bankroll.
Interesting ideas , I would love to hear more about these points , if you wouldn't mind elaborating on these sentences a bit for a "kinda-newbie" like myself...
“It seemed to me ... that any civilization that had so far lost its head as to need to include a set of detailed instructions for use in a package of toothpicks, was no longer a civilization in which I could live and stay sane.”
Yes. A couple of the best recognized a combination of potential and teachability and took me in. I went regularly to AC and rarely played the sh*t games but got the mentoring in person. I met some pretty amazing players that blew through on various weeks with skillz that one would think not possible. From ace tracking/locating to shuffle tracking to advanced counts that few even understand. I played in Pa on the way to and from these regular AP meetings. Now I return the favor by sharing my own innovations with my mentors.
I recall some years back when a small group of us would get together with a pile of blackjack publications and information, flip some cards and discuss finer aspects of blackjack theory stuff. Tthree was getting a heavy dose of HiOpt2 training at the time so I avoided clouding him up with too many details of my count although he had seen what I do. It was at these gatherings that I also got to meet incredibly talented people that demonstrated ST and sequencing techniques, etc. first hand and in person. Tthree has strived over the years to become a better player, always trying to further his skillset and never settling into complacency. His efforts have paid off and there's nothing better than hands on training to compliment what you read and study in texts and publications. We are all students of the game in the sense that we will never master all there is to master all the way up to the point where we go to that big blackjack table in the sky!
When I first started playing blackjack I didn't HAVE a bankroll would be the best way to put it! I was young and gainfully employed though. I was also determined to make it work or abandon the project early on. Luckily I had favorable results those first few years (using Hi-Lo!) that were incentive to continue because had it gone the other way it's likely that I wouldn't be sitting here typing this right now. By the time I started playing full time many years later I was operating at a nearly 0 ROR and very knowledgeable of just how dramatic the swings can be. I talked about the simple formula I use to ensure my bankroll will ultimately increase over time despite any and all fluctuations along the way, the 60/40 thing and it works. If you don't have a winning game AND a bankroll you are in trouble. If you don't have a bankroll you had better at least have a source of income and be able to afford putting some $ at high risk. I always marvel at people talking about short term losses (on here) as if "How could this possibly happen when I did everything I was supposed to do?" or they boast of short term gains and think this is substantiation of them being the world's greatest blackjack player when the big question might be "What do your numbers look like for the last 5 or 10 years?" and they are too focused on short term results.
What does make sense is evaluating your play in the short term. To critique every playing session and especially any losing playing sessions will help you improve your game but evaluating short term play in terms of wins and losses can be misleading. A sufficient span of time is required for this information to be of any relevance. I’ve had financial crunches along the way, huge swings that had me worried! I had enough money backing me though and got through it just fine, luckily. In the overall I have done well… my lifetime ROR is zero at this point.
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