The discard tray

[Tbonz]

I'm sure you guys have noticed that if you place a stack of brand new cards together with a stack of cards that have been used for a while, the new stack appears slightly smaller than the used stack. This knowledge is especially important when counting into 6-decks, particularly when getting closer to the end of a shoe.
I feel that my estimation of decks remaining is strong as I have practiced this at home. However, I am a little worried if there is about 3/4 - 1 1/4 decks remaining in a six deck game because obviously at this point, the difference between 3/4 decks and 1 deck for example is considerable with respect to how much to bet. The difference is much less when say only 1 deck or 2 decks have been dealt.
So my question is, do you guys consider "card use" when gauging how many decks are left? I would like to make sure that I am accurate. This concept has led me to consider using an unbalanced count system instead of hi-lo. I suppose I could just take a good look at the stack when the dealer takes it all out to shuffle and determine how big one deck, two decks, etc. are from there.
Thoughts?

A huge part of my game factors with me being extremely accurate with deck estimation. There will be many instances where there will be varying degrees of card thickness that could possibly throw off your estimation. What i do is not only practice deck estimation but also contrasting and comparing. What this means is, on average a 1/4 deck is the thickness of a chip. So you can use that as a control in the thickness of the cards you play. Count out 13 cards and see how they stack as compared to a chip. Then practice the visual for 2 chips, 3, etc. It doesn't matter how different the thickness is compared to the chip as much as you recognizing what that difference is. When you are able to do that, there will be no cards that you cannot estimate regardless of how different they are from the previous casino, or your practice decks.

[Dieter]

do you guys consider "card use" when gauging how many decks are left?

My friendly neighborhood store changes out the cards daily, so they're always "new".

If I recall correctly, Bee's and Bicycle's are slightly different thickness, so if you're looking to calibrate your eyecrometer, you might want to spend the $20 on a dozen decks of Bee's, if that's what you encounter during play.

BTW: close enough is usually close enough. I only do a card-by-card count when I'm scouting tables, to see exactly how deep they set the cut card, and if the dealer is consistent shoe to shoe, and if they're consistent dealer to dealer.

[metronome]

I have a Hollywood Casino in my playing area that uses a rose colored, two piece drop type discard rack. Makes deck estimation kind of a pain.
Luckily, I don't play there often as there's better rules elsewhere.

Wonder how the industry sources all their playing cards. In-house, couple of big suppliers contracted to multiple casino corporations etc.

[Exoter175]

I have a Hollywood Casino in my playing area that uses a rose colored, two piece drop type discard rack. Makes deck estimation kind of a pain.
Luckily, I don't play there often as there's better rules elsewhere.

Wonder how the industry sources all their playing cards. In-house, couple of big suppliers contracted to multiple casino corporations etc.

You mean there's anything other than the rose tinted two piece drop types? That's all I see in my state haha. Vegas was a little different IIRC, but it didn't bother me with the estimation. I just look at both the shoe and discard tray and make an estimation. I'm usually sitting at 3rd base, so the tray is right in front of me.

[Dieter]

Wonder how the industry sources all their playing cards. In-house, couple of big suppliers contracted to multiple casino corporations etc.

They buy them from playing card manufacturers. Usually a casino wants special features on their cards - like their name or logo on the back, what color the back is, and a non-standard face design (like Tech Art or No Peek).

One of the casino managers calls up the territory representative or a distributor for one or more of the big playing card manufacturers (USPCC, Gemaco, Paulson, Grimaud), explains their requirements, probably sends some artwork over, gets a price quote, and if they like it, buys them.

A casino with a dozen 6 deck tables that changes the cards daily will go through 42 dozen (about 500) decks a week, assuming hand shuffles. Double that for machine shuffles, where you've got one shoe in the shuffler and one shoe in play. (This "obvious" calculation included so that the minimum order quantity on custom cards doesn't seem out of line. I believe USPCC wants 2500 deck minimum for custom, but that's like... a 2-4 week supply, for this size house.)

[metronome]

Interesting Dieter. Visiting USPCC website, they produce a big three in recognizable names.

[Pete]

Years ago I had a PC gather up a pile of ash trays from the table and shove them up against the discard tray. Boy did that make ST'ing a lot easier. I try now to always get something shoved against the discard tray as it seems to help in deck estimation, as well as even simply following a clump of paint and marriage partners through a shuffle. If I've said too much feel free to bust this post.

[Blitzkrieg]

I occasionally play at a place with 8 decks. I hate those things. They cut off 2 decks at the end. This means though that you get 75% penetration. It's harder for me to judge how many decks remain with 8 decks..

Why would it be difficult for you to judge how many decks remain with eight decks, unless you have not practiced estimation with 8 decks? If you see 2 decks in the discard tray, you know that 6 un-played decks remain which will be used for your TC calculation.

[counter19]

Why would it be difficult for you to judge how many decks remain with eight decks, unless you have not practiced estimation with 8 decks? If you see 2 decks in the discard tray, you know that 6 un-played decks remain which will be used for your TC calculation.

When only 2 decks have been played, it's not difficult for me. It's usually when at least 5 decks have been played. The difficulty for me comes from the discard tray itself since it is taller. It's just simply because I am used to looking at 6-decks and their respective discard trays. My brain simply "wants" there to be 6 decks instead of 8.
To explain it another way, it's sort of like when you have kept something in a particular kitchen cabinet for years and suddenly changed it. You may continue to look for that object in the same cabinet for a while until you get used to the change. Since I VERY RARELY play 8 decks, I never really get used to the change.
Note that it is only "difficult" for me, not impossible. I feel that I am counting 8 decks well enough to play. I just can't do it with the freakish speed of 6 decks. In my personal case, it's all a moot point anyway since I only play 8 decks a few times a year.

[Ouchez]

Too much has been said in this thread., Sometimes things are posted simply because one wants to post, display their knowledge, tactics, and does not realize the potential damage that can be done, if and when, a casino representative, surveillance or whatever reads it. I can think of at least 4 posts here that have me concerned.

Tbonz is not one of them, and I thank this true, HIGHLY SKILLZ SET PRO, for taking the time to share. If you guyz, galz see him post, you best read it and feel lucky you had a chance to do so.

Please, think before you post.

Ouchez

[Three]

You had me checking to see if I had posted. I didn't. LOL

I am sure I have been guilty of this in other threads. Time to delete some posts. I have had to do this a few times before at the request of other members.

[ohbehave]

I posted here and don't really think I posted anything sensitive but if I did kindly let me know and I'll consider editing.

[Ouchez]

I posted here and don't really think I posted anything sensitive but if I did kindly let me know and I'll consider editing.

Please consider it, thanks.

O