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Thread: Tilt Management/Discipline Issues

  1. #1


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    Tilt Management/Discipline Issues

    Hi all,

    A coworker who I mentioned in an earlier post has finally decided that he would like to properly learn card counting. I got him started with Hi Lo and he seemed a quick study, easily able to effectively count down a shoe, backcount without drawing too much negative attention, etc. We hit the pits recently and I saw him wong in to a high count. I had a holdem tournament to get to so I left him to his own devices, as he seemed to be doing fine. During the tournament's dinner break I noticed a few texts from him stating that he had blown 16 K, indicating that he was playing far above what we agreed would be a safe betting ramp for him. I met up with him and of course he was super down on himself, admitting that he lost control. I sympathized with him, mentioning that I had some tilt issues of my own when I got started.

    He asked for advice on how to keep discipline during negative variance. I told him what worked for me (it's actually rather embarrassing: I would text my mother every time I sat down to a table, and mention the true count. I would do so again upon leaving the table, and say how far up/down I was . Hey it worked--I can't shame my dear old mum by wild gambling!). Obviously this method is not for everyone, so I am appealing to you, as APers. What do you do to keep tilt at bay?

    Thanks in advance, and be gentle with the Mama's boy cracks

  2. #2


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    [QUOTE=houyi;133719]
    He asked for advice on how to keep discipline during negative variance.

    Have a plan before you start playing and stick to it no matter what.
    For example, if your plan is to bet $400 at +5, do not vary from that no matter how far down you are.
    Some holes will take time to dig out of.
    Don't try to win it back all on one hand.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Jabberwocky's Avatar
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    Advice from the outliers. Be willing to accept a loss that is inside your comfort zone. Personally a predetermined number of max bets is my critical mass. Then I am done for that day-no exceptions. Next day-rinse and repeat.
    Vincit Qui Patitur

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    I really don't understand the question. You learn all this stuff about how to eek a small edge out of the game. The cornerstone of this knowledge is betting minimum or nothing when at a disadvantage and betting a lot more when you are at an advantage proportional to your advantage. It is a really simple concept and if you understand it why would you not follow it? Why would you instead do what you now know will make you play at a disadvantage? It just isn't logical or rational. Doesn't he understand where his advantage is derived from?

    The advantage is over a long term of play. You only get it if you follow the basics and play long enough to get to the long run without doing anything stupid.

  5. #5


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    I really don't understand the question. You learn all this stuff about how to eek a small edge out of the game. The cornerstone of this knowledge is betting minimum or nothing when at a disadvantage and betting a lot more when you are at an advantage proportional to your advantage. It is a really simple concept and if you understand it why would you not follow it? Why would you instead do what you now know will make you play at a disadvantage? It just isn't logical or rational. Doesn't he understand where his advantage is derived from?

    The advantage is over a long term of play. You only get it if you follow the basics and play long enough to get to the long run without doing anything stupid.
    I agree with your general premise, of course. The edges counters can get are quite small and profitability is all about volume. I don't know many other AP blackjack players, but I do know plenty of proficient NL Holdem players (a group of us used to grind 2/5, sometimes 5/10 during law school). Even winning poker players can (and often do, e.g. Phil Hellmuth) go on tilt if they feel they got "sucked out on." I've seen stuff like 4-5 suited run down Aces more times than I can count, despite their being a preflop worse-than-20/80 dog to the rockets. Players absolutely blow up over this sort of stuff, when they should be thanking fish for making such plays. In the long run, assuming you're charging them appropriately each step of the way, you're going to make a huge amount of money from players chasing straights and flushes. But still, players freak out because they "earned" a win with those Aces.

    I think it's the same way with card counting. Split three double-down hands against a dealer 6 at a huge count and see him draw to 21? You know that play had massive EV, but goddamn it, you earned a win right now! It just doesn't seem fair, especially if you were grinding your way to a solid profit only to see it vanish into the ether with one bad run of cards. At least that's how I see it--illogical though it might be, people can become emotionally involved over bad luck, perhaps especially when they are in a should-be winning situation. I've long since dealt with my own tilt issues, but it still is disappointing to backcount for hours on end only to get hammered and await a massive grind to get it back. I guess I was wondering if it is as common with AP BJ players or if you guys generally are truly a different breed than poker players.

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    You can go with a friend.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Nikky_Flash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    I really don't understand the question. You learn all this stuff about how to eek a small edge out of the game. The cornerstone of this knowledge is betting minimum or nothing when at a disadvantage and betting a lot more when you are at an advantage proportional to your advantage. It is a really simple concept and if you understand it why would you not follow it? Why would you instead do what you now know will make you play at a disadvantage? It just isn't logical or rational. Doesn't he understand where his advantage is derived from?

    The advantage is over a long term of play. You only get it if you follow the basics and play long enough to get to the long run without doing anything stupid.
    this rings true to me... (marked as helpful)
    “It seemed to me ... that any civilization that had so far lost its head as to need to include a set of detailed instructions for use in a package of toothpicks, was no longer a civilization in which I could live and stay sane.

  8. #8


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    I'm still exceptionally new to card counting (not to blackjack or basic strategy) so right now I'm taking it easy and allowing the learning curve to take its hold, and it goes fairly quickly in segments, and knowing that, I've been giving myself time, space, and air to breathe to adjust. As smart as I am (and I"m way up there in intelligence level) I don't think tackling the "whole" of counting at once is a smart decision. I've decided to do this in steps. First, learn how to count a deck down semi-quickly with 100% accuracy, then 2, then 6, then apply what I've learned to a real world scenario, and take a step back from the post-session to review and critique myself. Where am I needing help? Am I losing count? What would Tthree/Norm/Aslan say about the situation? Etc. From there, I apply my critique and skew my "practice" towards weaknesses, and then adjust. Again, back to the tables to put the practice into play, critique, adjust. Toss in a ton of reading books and posts here on the forum, and learn more nuances. I think I've been at it for maybe 3-4 weeks now, I'm showing positive returns 13 out of 16 trips, 2 were net neutral, 1 loss that was rather decent due to an ill-sized bankroll. I haven't learned my indices to a T yet, my spread is small and barely worth the time outside of sheer and raw experience/practice, and I'm starting to shuffle in some of the harder points of the "whole" of card counting.

    This stuff takes time, I can't stress that enough. As smart as a guy may be (myself as an example) you can never just jump in expecting great results immediately. There's a small chance you could burn the house down and get lucky and have everything go your way, but I feel there's an exponentially larger chance that you could bankrupt yourself very quickly without the practice and experience. Rome wasn't built in a day, as they say, and neither is perfect form in card counting.

    Because of all of this said, I set myself limitations. Do they work against me? Absolutely, but right now I'm not there to burn the house down, I'm there for educational purpose, and I'm limiting my negative outcomes (towards the total bankroll) by setting myself thresholds of +/- hands and/or Dollars.

    I know 2 APs in my area, and they've given me great advice, one of which was to come here to this forum and read, read, read. The best advice they've given me so far, and I can't stress this enough, is take take things "easy" out of the gate, because my margin for error will be much higher, and my chance of ruin if I play to my full bets will largely reflect the margin for error. They've both told me to take it easy for 3-5 months while I pick this up and hone my skills, and I think that's been about the best course of action I could go with, as it isn't going to ruin my bankroll in the process, and I'm getting solid time in at the tables and turning a small, but worthwhile profit in doing so.

    So really, if I had to give any advice, as a fellow newbie, it would be to lower your bet sizes, practice, practice, practice, and ease into the "whole" of card counting in segments. Whether you decide to break it up into 4 segments or 14 is up to you, but I feel its pretty important to fine tune your play at certain points so that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, if you know what I mean.

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