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Thread: Sweet 16 Question

  1. #27


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    OP, I had the same reaction as Don S. I couldn't tell what you meant by "indexing my Basic Strategy" given you said you hadn't even started to count. Not sure what you are doing with Sweet 16 indexes if you haven't started to count and haven't mastered Basic Strategy. I hope you are not learning Basic Strategy only for the player/dealer combinations of the Sweet 16. You have to learn BS for all Player total, Dealer up card combinations before learning anything else. The indexes are the True Counts (you might have a misunderstanding of what that is too) at which you deviate from Basic Strategy. Learn Basic Strategy until you can do it in your sleep, and then start learning to count. Assuming you pick Hi-Lo or other balanced count, master the Running Count. Then learn deck estimation and how to convert the Running Count to a True Count. Then learn how to vary your bet based on the True Count, and then learn the indices and how to deviate from Bsic Strategy when the True Count reaches the index.

    Basic Strategy for insurance is "never take insurance". You only can get an advantage taking insurance when the TC >=3, so people say, if you're not counting, don't take insurance. I can see how you may have interpreted this to mean the gain is minimal. In fact it's a bad bet if you're not counting, but if you are counting, there is much to be gained by making the bet above the right True Count.

  2. #28


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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    This discussion is positively bizarre. Every single person who has responded to you, including me, understands that you are a card counter who uses indices to make BS departures. You said so yourself in your original post!!! (But, you didn't realize what you were saying!) Now, above, you write: "Also, as both you and the books suggest, insurance should only be used with a requisite count. I have not even started to work on card counting (as suggested by the books that I learn basic strategy first).

    So, I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but you are hopelessly confused! I don't think you have a clue as to what "indexing my basic strategy" means. In fact, I'd venture to say that none of us understands what you intend it to mean either.

    You need to reread these posts and understand what is being told to you.

    Don
    Don, It appears to me that you, and most of the other posters on this forum, are so far ahead of me that you are not capable of understanding someone on a beginner's level. Whether I am hopelessly confused or not could be debated. I am not sure of your understanding but I DO realize what I am saying and I don't understand why you are having such a hard time with it. I realize that I am a beginner and understand that people who are on the 'professional' level sometimes get agitated when they have to deal with someone that they consider stupid or uneducated; someone not on their level. But, the reason I came to the forum was to try and learn something. If this is not the right forum to do that then again I ask you to redirect me to a 'beginner's forum.'

    All total I have been trying to learn blackjack for about a month. Excuse me for that, please. I apologize for not being on the 'expert' level, as is everyone else in this forum, after only a month. Perhaps I will never reach that expert level... maybe I'm just too old or dumb to learn. But, I suppose there are those, like you, who learned the whole of BJ in 1/2 hour. This IS typical for internet forums... a hand full of posters who are experts that can't stand dealing with beginners. Perhaps you have forgotten what it is like to be a beginner? Like I said... please redirect me if there is a better place for us beginners.

    About a month ago I bought Silberstang's book. I read through that book and started to memorize the basic strategy in that book. In his book Silberstang starts out with basic strategy with no alterations based on count. Then he introduces alterations to this basic strategy based on count. This is later in the book. It is not til about the mid point of the book when he begins to show basic card counting. In the book he stresses learning 'basic strategy' FIRST - with no alterations and no card counting. And suggests getting that basic strategy committed to memory FIRST - before attempting to count cards. In his book the basic strategy has no indices to begin with. Alterations to basic strategy (indexing) is introduced later in the book.

    Also, in Thorp's book - the second book I bought, he also suggest learning Basic Strategy first. In fact, if you take a look at page 5 you will see where he writes, "The Basic Strategy does not involve counting cards. However, after mastering the basic strategy, the reader will learn a simple modification, using a card counting system, that identifies situations in which he has an advantage over the casino of more than 3 percent." This is a direct quote - not my paraphrase.

    So as stupid as I may seem, this is what I have been doing. Up until about a week ago all I have been trying to do is to commit the 'basic strategy' (with out any indices or alterations) to memory. About a week ago I started looking at altering the basic strategy based on indices - I started to memorize the Sweet 16 Indices.

    Also, up to this point I have not counted any cards. I do intend to start counting but, up to this point I have only read through the 'card counting' chapters in the books I have. I know what is involved, based on what I have read, but, in the truest sense I have not counted any cards. I have not dealt out any hands and counted +1 or -2 or anything LIKE that. Nor, have I watched any games and tried to follow the count or anything. I HAVE NOT COUNTED THE FIRST CARD YET. All I have done is to try and commit strategy charts and the Sweet 16 Indices to memory. Now if I am not using the correct terms to describe what I am doing - well, I can't help that.... remember I am a beginner and have only been looking at BJ for about a month. Up to this point I have NEVER played a BJ hand. If I am not using the correct terms to describe what I have been doing then correct me. Constructive criticism I can handle - condescending attitudes I have a problem with. And BTW I do believe I know exactly what "Indexing my basic strategy means." But, if you believe I don't then by all means - explain it to me. That's why I am here in the first place - to learn things I don't know. Isn't that what this forum is for? If not let me know and I will get the H out of here!

    Back in the day when I worked I was an Engineering Technician in a Truss Factory. I worked in the Truss Industry for 30 years. I designed literally thousands of sets of trusses for everything from commercial buildings to storage sheds and everything in between. I assure you that if you were to come down to the truss plant and sit with me for a while I can make you look absolutely STUPID! Not that I'm smarter than you... its just I've been doing it for 30 years.

    Thanks
    Night_Rider

  3. #29


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    Quote Originally Posted by Intermediate View Post
    OP, I had the same reaction as Don S. I couldn't tell what you meant by "indexing my Basic Strategy" given you said you hadn't even started to count. Not sure what you are doing with Sweet 16 indexes if you haven't started to count and haven't mastered Basic Strategy. I hope you are not learning Basic Strategy only for the player/dealer combinations of the Sweet 16. You have to learn BS for all Player total, Dealer up card combinations before learning anything else. The indexes are the True Counts (you might have a misunderstanding of what that is too) at which you deviate from Basic Strategy. Learn Basic Strategy until you can do it in your sleep, and then start learning to count. Assuming you pick Hi-Lo or other balanced count, master the Running Count. Then learn deck estimation and how to convert the Running Count to a True Count. Then learn how to vary your bet based on the True Count, and then learn the indices and how to deviate from Bsic Strategy when the True Count reaches the index.

    Basic Strategy for insurance is "never take insurance". You only can get an advantage taking insurance when the TC >=3, so people say, if you're not counting, don't take insurance. I can see how you may have interpreted this to mean the gain is minimal. In fact it's a bad bet if you're not counting, but if you are counting, there is much to be gained by making the bet above the right True Count.
    Intermediate: This is EXACTLY what I have been attempting to do... I don't know why no one seems to understand that. I have explained myself several times and still everyone seems confused. Even you, in your post, say "You have learn BS for all Player total, Dealer up card combinations before learning anything else." Well, that is EXACTLY what I have been doing and it seems everyone has a problem with that. I am attempting to do EXACTLY as you say.... to "Learn Basic Strategy until you can do it in your sleep, and then start learning to count." Again, this is EXACTLY what I have been doing and EXACTLY what I have been saying in my post. I just don't understand what the problem is other than the 'experts' seem unable to comprehend what I say.

    Night_Rider

  4. #30
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    There is a free book in the BJ Resources tool bar at the top of the page. It is a great book for growing knowledge from a neophyte level. Stop being defensive and try to educate yourself to the point that you can understand the advice given you by some of the foremost experts in the field before you make them want to not answer your questions in the future.

  5. #31


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    There is a free book in the BJ Resources tool bar at the top of the page. It is a great book for growing knowledge from a neophyte level. Stop being defensive and try to educate yourself to the point that you can understand the advice given you by some of the foremost experts in the field before you make them want to not answer your questions in the future.
    Tthree: I am trying to do just that. But tell me that those experts don't understand what I mean when I say "I have not started to count cards yet" and that they don't understand what I mean when I say "indexing my basic strategy." In fact the previous post by Intermediate pretty much suggest EXACTLY that. I am not trying to be defensive but it is getting difficult considering the condescending attitudes here. I bet you know what I mean when I say I am a beginner, that I have been trying to memorize basic strategy, and that I have not started to count cards yet. And I bet you know what "indexing basic strategy" means too. Or should I say "altering basic strategy based on an index?" I personally fail to see the difference.

    I came to this forum to learn by asking questions. If that is not possible here then please tell me and I will leave. I apologize if I don't present my questions in 'expert form.' Remember, I AM A BEGINNER.

    Night_Rider

  6. #32
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    MY point is, why bother with explaining that. They are offering help and taking a lot of time to give it. They don't need to read you explaining over and over that you are a beginner. Have a thick enough skin to be gracious about advice given and simply ask follow up questions to help your understanding. I have always been very helpful to beginners (or at least I have tried to be) but I didn't read a lot of your long posts that didn't say much except the same thing over and over again that really wasn't of much use to moving the discussion forward. I have read very long posts (much longer than yours) when the information in the post was relevant to moving the discussion forward and giving the beginner knowledge.

    Now in case after reading 2 books your understanding of indices is weak. You count cards for 2 benefits. One sizing your bets so your bets increase proportional to your advantage and you can bet minimum or nothing at a disadvantage. Two so you can deviate from basic strategy when it will increase your long run profits. The former is the most important part of playing shoe games because those games generally tolerate larger bet spreads and with more cards in play the gain from deviations is slightly diluted.

    We have been talking about playing deviations. They become much more important in pitch games (single and double deck) due to a much smaller bet spread being what is generally tolerated by the casino and slightly because with fewer cards left to be played the deviation is a little stronger. The most profitable deviation is insurance. It is so important that the three numbers that are used to tell how a count performs include a number just for the insurance play. These numbers are Betting Correlation (BC), Playing Efficiency (PE) and Insurance Correlation (IC). By comparing these numbers between counts you get a relative idea of what different counts strengths are for the important aspects of the game.

    Playing deviations are defined by each hand match up. There is a number that defines the deviation called the index. It is usually the same from game to game but may vary slightly by rule set and number of decks being used. If the count is at or above the index you make the deviation and if not you play basic strategy. This is true for each decision except very rare decisions that are actually the opposite called reverse indices. Usually these reverse index deviations are made in negative counts where you won't be playing anyway because you are at such a large disadvantage that you would leave or be betting 0.

    I am surprised you have read two books and not digested this minimal understanding from them but your choice of books for a beginner may have been very poor. I don't remember reading either book (maybe Beat The Dealer decades ago as I do have a copy) so I can't really make an educated comment on that. There are threads on good beginner books in the forum but I am sure you will get lots of recommendations for beginner books from the forum members if you ask.

    I find Don's book to be a must read but you may not be ready for Blackjack Attack (3rd edition). It was selling used for well over $100 a copy until the rerelease of it recently. Now you can get a new copy for around $30. That should tell you how much money the book will get you in increased profits once your are at that level.

    To understand how counting works a little book that is practically free on the used market called The Theory of Blackjack by Peter Griffin is a great source but some counters just use formulas and really don't understand the math of the game. Understanding the math was a must in the old days but today many just learn the counts and indices and the formulas to use them and how to operate a good simulator like Norm's software (CVdata and CVCX simulators which are by consensus the best available for the public in the industry). This is fine but if you don't understand the math of the game you better have the discipline to follow the formulas because you will not understand the costs of not following them; although, Norm's software can tell you that as well for any specific situation if you master using it.

    It ahs been so long since I was a beginner I am not sure what to recommend as a great beginner book but Norm's free book, Modern Blackjack I believe and The Color of Blackjack (accessible for free online) both have great visuals in the form of graphs that can really help new players quickly understand what they are trying to learn.

  7. #33


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    Well, I give. Thank you for the great information on what an index is, where it comes from, and how and why to use it. I could swear that I have read this same material, at least a couple of times, but I guess I am mistaken. I will get some more books and continue to practice with software and next time perhaps I can formulate a question or two that can be understood. Perhaps by then I will understand that an index is a number that is derived from counting cards (running count divided by remaining cards in the shoe - I plan to use 1/2 decks but what do I know) that is used to make a decision about certain hands (a decision based on my hand and the dealers up card) and whether to hit or stand, or double down, or split, etc, etc, etc, those hands. I will make sure that I understand this and as many other Blackjack concepts that I can before making any additional posts.

    Thank you,

    Night_Rider
    Last edited by Night_Rider; 06-15-2014 at 02:09 PM.

  8. #34
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    Well, my point was to not be so defensive in your responses. I hope this isn't a pissed off response as I was only trying to help you use those helpful posters for info without making them want to no longer help. I didn't intend for you to not post for a while. Keep posting questions as you learn. Just try not to get defensive. We were all beginners once so believe it or not we can understand what that means. Most of what I took from this thread was from reading responses to your posts as I said I didn't read through many of your long posts mostly because I had fallen behind on the site and was trying to catch up and read through a long unread thread list. I could easily not have a thorough understanding of what went on here but I sensed you were turning helpful people off with your defensive answers.

    Sorry if my attempt to help you with that was hard to hear. I am not sure if it was or not. I didn't intend it to be.

  9. #35


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    Quote Originally Posted by Night_Rider View Post
    Well, I give. Thank you for the great information on what an index is, where it comes from, and how and why to use it. I could swear that I have read this same material, at least a couple of times, but I guess I am mistaken. I will get some more books and continue to practice with software and next time perhaps I can formulate a question or two that can be understood. Perhaps by then I will understand that an index is a number that is derived from counting cards (running count divided by remaining cards in the shoe - I plan to use 1/2 decks but what do I know) that is used to make a decision about certain hands (a decision based on my hand and the dealers up card) and whether to hit or stand, or double down, or split, etc, etc, etc, those hands. I will make sure that I understand this and as many other Blackjack concepts that I can before making any additional posts.

    Thank you,

    Night_Rider
    Take a deep breath, I get your side of this, and I get the side of Don, Tthree and others, and at the end of the day, we're all trying to accomplish the same thing, or at least I'd hope so.

    It is indeed frustration, if I may use that here, to chat with some of these guys on the back and forth to express my angle and point of view, while attempting to comprehend theirs, as I"m here to gain value from their knowledge, and they gain nothing from mine. Now, I wouldn't go as far as to refrain from posting until you "know" more about the concepts, I believe Don and Tthree would both discourage that behavior and instead ask you to post more frequently, and I'd be with them in that thought. You aren't going to learn anything if you don't ask questions, they know that, I know that, you know that, but as a fellow newbie myself, its our job to take what they have to say and digest it and absorb the important parts. In all reality, whether they choose to accept it or not, we perceive them as mentors while we slowly mature into much less raw forms of counters, and as I stated in a post in another thread, I find its much more important for us new guys to learn the nuances of card counting in segments, rather than all at once, and then tone down the grinding and bet spread, and actually get out there for some practical hands on action not necessarily to make money, but to get used to the ebb and flow of things.

    To be embarrassingly honest, I don't even know my indices or have even begun practicing and drilling them, I'm just not to that step in my own personal training yet, but I will, and I'll get it down pat. From a beginner looking at becoming a pro, the two most important things for us to learn are Basic Strategy, and a counting system (hi-lo as a great example for beginners). From there, the game changes. From a pro looking back to the beginning levels of card counting, Basic Strategy and a counting system, while important, barely even register on level of importance because by now it is so completely second nature that is at best a mere passing thought sometimes. Learning to card count seems to me, as a beginner, to be an ever evolving world of tiered learning and information.

    Sorry for the long winded response

  10. #36


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    OP, the problem is you refer to learning the Sweet 16 indexes, and yet you say you haven't started counting cards. Indexes are irrelevant if you haven't counted a card. What do you think you would do with the indexes if you haven't leaned to count? That's why the conversation seems bizarre. That's like trying to understand a Finite Element Analysis without learning the mechanics of solids first.

    I recommend you pick up "Professional Blackjack" by Stanford Wong. It has a very structured discussion of Basic Strategy and Card Counting, and other advanced plays, so I think it helps beginners see how this stuff all fits together. Understanding how all of this fits together is a big challenge for beginners, especially when you can access bits/pieces over the internet without a framework. I would consider PBJ, along with BJA v3 one of the must reads, if not one of the bibles. BJA is probably better after you've got some mileage in at the tables. Modern Blackjack (available at this site) is one of the better contemporary books. I'm sure others will chime in with their opinions, since some of the books we all have on our shelves are getting a bit out dated given how the game has evolved. The two books you mentioned are in that category. Thorpe's is a must read for understanding the historical context, as are those by Ken Uston and Ian Anderson but you have to be pretty seasoned to know what advice is still applicable to today's game.

    Don't be defensive about being a beginner, but make sure you have some thick skin. Those qualities will serve you well should you advance in this endeavor. Get that Basic Strategy down, get a bankroll together ( and that's a whole subject by itself) and get your feet wet by finding a $5 table, if not a $2 or $3 table, and play a little. You will accelerate your learning curve by getting some time at the tables, and hopefully you won't go broke while doing so.....

  11. #37


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    Tthree, Exoter175, and Intermediat: I appreciate your posts and I feel compelled to reply. I will try to keep it short so as not to bore anyone.

    In Don's first Post he said, "Let me chide you on not looking at insurance decisions yet! Insurance is the single most important of all the indices. Why in the world would you place it last instead of first in your studies? Make no sense at all."

    In Don's second Post he said, "And, again the legitimate question is - What complexity are you talking about? You are putting off taking insurance in multi-deck when TC is +3 or higher for what reason, exactly? You are learning indices, but this one is too tough for you??? You understand your not making a lot of sense don't you?"

    So I tried to explain where I got the info and why I was doing what I was doing but seems no one gave a crap. At least it seems to me as though my post were either not read or disregarded.

    I am asked "if I understand that I am not making a lot of sense," and "your learning indices, but this one is too hard for you???"

    Well, no its not too hard - I JUST HAVE NOT GOTTEN TO THAT POINT YET! And it makes perfect sense to me. Maybe not to Don but it does to me. I am doing what the two books I have said to do. Both of the books I have read, so far, have indicated that insurance is not all that important. I get it that times have changed and this may not be the right advice - but up until I posted to this forum that is what I was told / learned from the material I had. And why doesn't it make sense to learn indexing BEFORE learning to count cards? What is so difficult about this concept to understand? I am memorizing the decision points for the Sweet Sixteen. I am trying to prepare myself for when I do start actually counting - so that I know the index before starting to play. Tthree, at what point did you start memorizing indices? Before or after learning to count? And does it really matter as long as it is learned? Again, most of the material I have seen says to learn basic strategy etc. etc. BEFORE starting to count. And they don't include insurance at this point because in the material, I have, insurance is not part of basic strategy... it is given as a "player option." And I think, (now I'm going out on a limb here) that most of the BJ study material, out there, is structured the same.

    So, after being told I don't make much sense etc. and being chided for doing what some books (written by experts) told me to do I am feeling a little defensive. It seems to me that most of the replies I got were from those that were just rubber stamping what ever Don said and did not ever consider what I said in my long, boring replies. I think some of the other posters even accused me of 'not knowing what an index is' etc. Well, no I am not an expert but I DID read about Indexing at least twice (before making my first post) and I do/did know the what, where, and why. Its just they assumed that I didn't know about them. Again, not an expert but certainly not completely void of any knowledge at all!

    Here are some dumb questions.... Don says that insurance is the single most important decision in BJ - so does this mean I am supposed to study insurance first and worry about basic strategy later? Does this really make all that much sense due to the fact that probably 80% of play is NOT insurance but basic strategy (altered with indices of course)? If YOU had to learn one but not the other would your choice be insurance over basic strategy? Could you play BJ with just insurance and no basic strategy? Could you play BJ with just basic strategy and no insurance?

    So anyway I apologize for getting defensive but after being told I don't make much sense and that everything I have been doing was questioned... well I got a little defensive - a little insulted too. I realize Don's credentials - but how long has he been at it? Thirty years? Me - I've only been at it a few weeks. Don't expect me to match wits with someone that has been at it for 30 years. Yes, maybe I don't make sense sometimes but that doesn't mean I am incapable of learning... it means I don't have Don's 30 years of experience.

    Night_Rider
    Last edited by Night_Rider; 06-16-2014 at 03:51 AM.

  12. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night_Rider View Post
    Tthree, at what point did you start memorizing indices? Before or after learning to count?
    I learned it all at once. I knew it would take many months to really be ready and that each step would take a while and have a daily saturation point. When I got to the point of less productive study I switched to a different part of the training. Until I learned what worked for making things stick in my brain memorization was very difficult for me. I rarely memorized anything for school but rather understood everything. I memorized one trig formula and during a test I would derive the others I needed and still be the first to finish. I just knew that certain relationships existed and confirmed what the nitty-gritty of the trig equations were during the test. I tried the flash card route but it wasn't what worked for me. Memorizing number strings for each hand matchup made memorization a snap for me. Then with repetitive usage they became memorized individually. The more useless ones were slowest to memorize because they were used so infrequently. I would usually have to go back to the number string.
    Quote Originally Posted by Night_Rider View Post
    And does it really matter as long as it is learned?
    It doesn't matter what order you learn things in. Everyone is different and what works for 1 person may not work at all for another. One person may be ready in weeks while another takes months or even closer to a year.
    Quote Originally Posted by Night_Rider View Post
    And they don't include insurance at this point because in the material, I have, insurance is not part of basic strategy... it is given as a "player option."
    Basic Strategy is to never take insurance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Night_Rider View Post
    So, after being told I don't make much sense etc. and being chided for doing what some books (written by experts) told me to do I am feeling a little defensive.
    There is no need to defend yourself. Learn from the posts if someone gives bad advice someone else will challenge it. Ask follow up questions if you don't understand. You talked about a mentor relationship. A mentor is always looking for a top student. The feedback in the forum is not revealing the most sensitive stuff as casino personnel also visit the forum. A mentor looks for a good listener that shows a high degree of comprehension and asks good follow up questions. You show that kind of ability and someone may decide to contact you and do a more personal mentoring. Networking is an important part of success. Being asked to have a closer relationship than on the forum gets you in a network and can lead to more knowledge than you would ever get here.

    The responses ribber stamped Don because he was right. If he was wrong or someone believed he was wrong they would have posted such a response.
    Quote Originally Posted by Night_Rider View Post
    Here are some dumb questions.... Don says that insurance is the single most important decision in BJ - so does this mean I am supposed to study insurance first and worry about basic strategy later? Does this really make all that much sense due to the fact that probably 80% of play is NOT insurance but basic strategy (altered with indices of course)? If YOU had to learn one but not the other would your choice be insurance over basic strategy? Could you play BJ with just insurance and no basic strategy? Could you play BJ with just basic strategy and no insurance?
    Now,see these are not intelligent follow up questions. They are defensive and hopefully sarcastic. Not exactly starting out well to attract a off the boards contact. Insurance is in the Sweet 16 as the first and most important index play. It is not the Illustrious 18 as splitting TT is omitted for heat averse reasons even though these rarely used indices are quite profitable over time.

  13. #39


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    Quote Originally Posted by Night_Rider View Post
    Tthree, Exoter175, and Intermediat: I appreciate your posts and I feel compelled to reply. I will try to keep it short so as not to bore anyone.

    In Don's first Post he said, "Let me chide you on not looking at insurance decisions yet! Insurance is the single most important of all the indices. Why in the world would you place it last instead of first in your studies? Make no sense at all."

    In Don's second Post he said, "And, again the legitimate question is - What complexity are you talking about? You are putting off taking insurance in multi-deck when TC is +3 or higher for what reason, exactly? You are learning indices, but this one is too tough for you??? You understand your not making a lot of sense don't you?"

    So I tried to explain where I got the info and why I was doing what I was doing but seems no one gave a crap. At least it seems to me as though my post were either not read or disregarded.

    I am asked "if I understand that I am not making a lot of sense," and "your learning indices, but this one is too hard for you???"

    Well, no its not too hard - I JUST HAVE NOT GOTTEN TO THAT POINT YET! And it makes perfect sense to me. Maybe not to Don but it does to me. I am doing what the two books I have said to do. Both of the books I have read, so far, have indicated that insurance is not all that important. I get it that times have changed and this may not be the right advice - but up until I posted to this forum that is what I was told / learned from the material I had. And why doesn't it make sense to learn indexing BEFORE learning to count cards? What is so difficult about this concept to understand? I am memorizing the decision points for the Sweet Sixteen. I am trying to prepare myself for when I do start actually counting - so that I know the index before starting to play. Tthree, at what point did you start memorizing indices? Before or after learning to count? And does it really matter as long as it is learned? Again, most of the material I have seen says to learn basic strategy etc. etc. BEFORE starting to count. And they don't include insurance at this point because in the material, I have, insurance is not part of basic strategy... it is given as a "player option." And I think, (now I'm going out on a limb here) that most of the BJ study material, out there, is structured the same.

    So, after being told I don't make much sense etc. and being chided for doing what some books (written by experts) told me to do I am feeling a little defensive. It seems to me that most of the replies I got were from those that were just rubber stamping what ever Don said and did not ever consider what I said in my long, boring replies. I think some of the other posters even accused me of 'not knowing what an index is' etc. Well, no I am not an expert but I DID read about Indexing at least twice (before making my first post) and I do/did know the what, where, and why. Its just they assumed that I didn't know about them. Again, not an expert but certainly not completely void of any knowledge at all!

    Here are some dumb questions.... Don says that insurance is the single most important decision in BJ - so does this mean I am supposed to study insurance first and worry about basic strategy later? Does this really make all that much sense due to the fact that probably 80% of play is NOT insurance but basic strategy (altered with indices of course)? If YOU had to learn one but not the other would your choice be insurance over basic strategy? Could you play BJ with just insurance and no basic strategy? Could you play BJ with just basic strategy and no insurance?

    So anyway I apologize for getting defensive but after being told I don't make much sense and that everything I have been doing was questioned... well I got a little defensive - a little insulted too. I realize Don's credentials - but how long has he been at it? Thirty years? Me - I've only been at it a few weeks. Don't expect me to match wits with someone that has been at it for 30 years. Yes, maybe I don't make sense sometimes but that doesn't mean I am incapable of learning... it means I don't have Don's 30 years of experience.

    Night_Rider

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL8e2ujXe8g&feature=kp
    Life's true face is the skull.” - Nikos Kazantzakis

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BJTF is an advantage player site based on the principles of comity. That is, civil and considerate behavior for the mutual benefit of all involved. The goal of advantage play is the legal extraction of funds from gaming establishments by gaining a mathematic advantage and developing the skills required to use that advantage. To maximize our success, it is important to understand that we are all on the same side. Personal conflicts simply get in the way of our goals.