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Thread: Why You Need 1,000 Units

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    Exclamation Why You Need 1,000 Units

    Granted, this attached image is only representative of a my piddly $5 table play over 123 hours, but the point still stands...what a ride...Attachment 1661

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    Invalid link

  3. #3


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    Post



    Perhaps now you can see the image? I copy-pasted it here...

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    Nothing there.

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    Can't see image

  6. #6
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    Nope, nothing. I presume your chart will hint at the large swings that will occur.

    First issue is your definition of unit. I am going to assume, you are using the more common definition of unit where unit = minimum wager and not the less common definition that I refer to as the Munchkin/bigplayer definition of unit.

    If that is the case, 1000 units would not be nearly enough BR for my liking. With a 1-10 spread, you would have 100 max bets. With a 1-12 spread, about 80. and with a 1-16 spread only about 60. If you are getting your max bet out early enough that it can actually benefit you, then these numbers of BR being 60 or 80 max bets are problematic.

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    Like KJ I use the pro's definition of unit. Even then 1,000 units by that definition would make me uncomfortable. Your min bet doesn't have much to do with BR needs. If your min bet should be a s small as possible. If you backcount it is 0. I refer to your min bet as your waiting bet. It should be as small as you can get away with. Ideally it should be 0 since you make it when you are at a disadvantage but that may not be practical. Now the amount that you put out at your first advantage bet is what I call a unit. Your ramp should be based on this amount with waiting bets fitting the situation. You will make as few of the waiting bets as possible. Some places I can get away with a tiny waiting bet (1/5th of my unit bet) but most places about 40% of my unit bet is what is wiser. I don't think 1,000 of my units is a safe BR. That is 3,000 to 5,000 min bets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    Like KJ I use the pro's definition of unit.
    First question:

    When simulating a bet ramp using a "pro unit" and a min bet in CV, you have to set your unit as your min bet, otherwise the software won't consider bets lower than your "pro unit".
    So, when analyzing the results, you divide, for instance, the standard deviation given in units (min bets) by the number of min bets your "pro unit" is composed of to get your "real" standard deviation?

    Second question:

    My bet ramp does not have a "pro unit" in the sense that there is a number of bet amounts that can be made in a given TC because of cover. However, I do try to make the average bet at a given TC close to the optimum.
    My system has an advantage at TC=+1. If I first reach a TC+1 directly after TC=0, I keep the same range of bets (3 different amounts alternating based on winning and losing situations). However, I may reach TC+1 after betting larger in a TC=+2, for instance, so my bets at TC+1 will be larger sometimes. My question is: should I consider my "pro unit" (i) the average bet amount at TC+1; (ii) the average bet in the 3-bet range I mentioned; (iii) the smallest bet amount besides the min bet; (iv) some other value?

    Third question:

    Do you consider your spread your max bet divided by the "pro-unit" or by the min bet?


    Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.

    Thanks in advance for any clarifications.

    Best!
    Life's true face is the skull.” - Nikos Kazantzakis

  9. #9


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    The difference is conceptual... it wont affect the way you run calculations nor the definition of spread.
    If you define unit as your minimum bet, then the generalization of the definition of unit would become very vague and very difficult to use.
    Player A spreads from $5 to $1000.
    Player B spreads from $5 to $50.
    According to the popular definition of unit, they both are playing with $5 units, but wouldnt you agree that talking about units as a general concept in this case would be useless from any analytic perspective?
    If you look at both players ramps you could reach to a much precise definition of unit that would allow you to consider the difference that exists between the 2 players.

  10. #10


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    Thanks for your answer bjarg!

    Quote Originally Posted by bjarg View Post
    Player A spreads from $5 to $1000.
    Player B spreads from $5 to $50.
    According to the popular definition of unit, they both are playing with $5 units, but wouldnt you agree that talking about units as a general concept in this case would be useless from any analytic perspective?
    Yes, I would agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by bjarg View Post
    If you look at both players ramps you could reach to a much precise definition of unit that would allow you to consider the difference that exists between the 2 players.
    But what then do you look for when analyzing a player's ramp? How would you define his unit bet when looking at his ramp?
    Life's true face is the skull.” - Nikos Kazantzakis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skull21 View Post
    But what then do you look for when analyzing a player's ramp? How would you define his unit bet when looking at his ramp?
    It depends what it is you want to analyze.
    That's why I said its a conceptual difference.
    People usually say things like what was said in this thread "You need X units."
    But that means nothing when your definition of unit is the minimum bet (like it can be shown in the previous example).

    2 ramps:

    Player A:

    0 or < - $5
    +1 - $200
    +2 - $400
    +3 - $600
    +4 or > - $800

    This players unit is $200.

    Player B:

    0 or < - $5
    +1 - $25
    +2 - $50
    +3 - $75
    +4 or > - $100

    This players unit is $25.

    Its not a big deal though.
    It is just a conceptual difference that will allow you to bring more meaning to the concept of "unit" as a general idea, nothing more.

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    OP, we're you using optimal bets throughout sessions?

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by bjarg View Post
    It is just a conceptual difference that will allow you to bring more meaning to the concept of "unit" as a general idea, nothing more.
    I understand it is just a conceptual difference, but I like having both my concepts and their more practical counterparts well defined. In that way, I can both try to participate knowledgeably in chats with you guys and derive meaningful practical implementations of the concepts. I am rather punctilious, I guess (just found this word )

    Consider this example:

    Player C:

    0 or < - $5, $10, $20
    +1 - $10, $20, $40
    +2 - $40 $80
    +3 - $80 $120
    +4 or > - $160

    The frequency with each every bet amount is used, of course, varies a lot. For instance, he would make much more $10 bets at TC<=0 then when TC=+1 and much more $40 bets when TC=+2 than when TC=+1 and so forth. The average bet would theoretically approximate the optimum bet for the given TC. Assuming the average of TC+1 is close to $20, would you define $20 as your unit bet?
    Life's true face is the skull.” - Nikos Kazantzakis

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