Harrahs Cherokee cheating at Blackjack

[BJNewbeeNoMore]

Great question. In the VIP room one deck was short the other was not. Auto shuffle in the VIP as well. I stood through 4 shoes at the 50 min table and noticed it was every other deck.

They have shufflemasters on the main floor ($10/$15/$25 min). The high limit area $50 min have shufflemasters as well. There's a room adjacent to $50 high limit they call VIP room and is hand shuffle $100 minimum.

I heared they opened 2 new pit sections on the main floor, about 10-16 tables, and 10 of them are hand shuffle since the shufflemaster is backordered, but they would put shufflers as soon as they come in.

So are you referring to the hand shuffle on the low limit tables (main floor) or VIP room?

Can they take out the high cards on the tables that have shufflers?

[rivrat77]

They have shufflemasters on the main floor ($10/$15/$25 min). The high limit area $50 min have shufflemasters as well. There's a room adjacent to $50 high limit they call VIP room and is hand shuffle $100 minimum.

I heared they opened 2 new pit sections on the main floor, 20-30 tables, and about 20 of them are hand shuffle since the shufflemaster is backordered, but they would put shufflers as soon as they come in.

So are you referring to the hand shuffle on the low limit tables (main floor) or VIP room?

Can they take out the high cards on the tables that have shufflers?

With what I saw yes. Im referring to the hand shuffled cards on the 25 min tables. It was each and every hand shuffled table. I watched three but the one in particular was absurd. The 100 min they could not get away with this whatsoever. They also at the 100 min the dealer stands on a soft 17 the way it should be on every table. But to answer your queston yes they can. The one deck was short. The other was not. That I saw but cant prove. The other I damn sure can.

[Aslan]

From what I read here, this is either a proven fact, or the posters here have entered the Twilight Zone where the highly improbable has happened, over and over and over again.

Being that it is a hand shuffle, it would be difficult to false shuffle leaving the tens compacted behind the cut card, and surely you would have noticed one or two decks of high cards not being mixed with the rest of the cards, depending on whether all or just many of the tens are being isolated behind the cut card.

Possibly strippers could be used to facilitate the isolation of tens, but that would have a telltale sign, the "pulling" or "stripping"of the tens out of the cards being shuffled in a manner that mimicks shuffling, and the consolidation of tens from various piles if needed by the same procedure.

Any attempt to isolate tens in a legitimate set of decks could be easily foiled by a cut in the right place bringing the tens into play. One mistake (an undesirable cut) and suddenly the dealer is dealing ten after ten after ten. That would be a fine shoe to play, except for the fact that if aces are not isolated with them, it would result in push after push, but a most noticeable push scenario, one in which everyone has twenty for the longest time. Even ploppies would notice.

So, the scenario the posters have put forth is the most plausible one IMO, that is, that many tens have been taken out of the game, likely replaced with lower valued cards (no replacement would be noticeable), resulting in consistently skyrocketing plus counts. This is permanent and incontrovertible evidence of a crime, and securing the discarded cards when new cards are brought into play would put someone in the clink (almost) for sure.

I would notify the National Indian Gaming Commission, it's Indian Gaming Work Group, and the FBI. It would be easy enough for them to monitor the game where the alleged crime is taking place, and step in and confiscate the cards for evidence of criminal activity. I certainly hope the posters notify these organizations to bring this to an appropriate conclusion.

[hitA7]

Just as I'm starting to be "open-minded" to Pala casino potentially "doctoring" their shuffles (with their ASMs that literally trip up every time I have been there, and dealers pull very fishy hands)...then this thread....oh man oh man.....

[rivrat77]

From what I read here, this is either a proven fact, or the posters here have entered the Twilight Zone where the highly improbable has happened, over and over and over again.

Being that it is a hand shuffle, it would be difficult to false shuffle leaving the tens compacted behind the cut card, and surely you would have noticed one or two decks of high cards not being mixed with the rest of the cards, depending on whether all or just many of the tens are being isolated behind the cut card.

Possibly strippers could be used to facilitate the isolation of tens, but that would have a telltale sign, the "pulling" or "stripping"of the tens out of the cards being shuffled in a manner that mimicks shuffling, and the consolidation of tens from various piles if needed by the same procedure.

Any attempt to isolate tens in a legitimate set of decks could be easily foiled by a cut in the right place bringing the tens into play. One mistake (an undesirable cut) and suddenly the dealer is dealing ten after ten after ten. That would be a fine shoe to play, except for the fact that if aces are not isolated with them, it would result in push after push, but a most noticeable push scenario, one in which everyone has twenty for the longest time. Even ploppies would notice.

So, the scenario the posters have put forth is the most plausible one IMO, that is, that many tens have been taken out of the game, likely replaced with lower valued cards (no replacement would be noticeable), resulting in consistently skyrocketing plus counts. This is permanent and incontrovertible evidence of a crime, and securing the discarded cards when new cards are brought into play would put someone in the clink (almost) for sure.

I would notify the National Indian Gaming Commission, it's Indian Gaming Work Group, and the FBI. It would be easy enough for them to monitor the game where the alleged crime is taking place, and step in and confiscate the cards for evidence of criminal activity. I certainly hope the posters notify these organizations to bring this to an appropriate conclusion.

I have video proof as well as pictures of the most outrageous hands, and 3 witnesses. Again. I am with you 1 Mil. percent. It looks like that anyone with any mathematical sense can tell when there are a table full of number cards and one face card. You would think. The running count for the 3 hours I stood there was each and every time mid to upper 20s. Thats impossible with 6 normal decks. The last deck I would have bet my home,my kids, and my private parts on in Las Vegas. Each hand when a player would stand on a 14 against a dealers 4 5 or 6 the dealer would pull numbers to 17 18 19 or 20 sometimes 7 cards to outrun the them. Here in NC that property is governed by the Cherokee Indians. There is no state authority whatsoever on Indian land here to regulate them. The only option that after 3 days of online researching that I have done is to A. Call the FBI or B. Call Caesars management.

[RobinHood21]

I'm going to have to second that... Highly unbelievable. It sounds more like a down swing of bad cards then anything. And why you would post the name of the casino is beyond me???


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[BJNewbeeNoMore]

When they open a new BJ table. Doesn't the dealer fan the cards out on the table and check the decks for flaws for everyone to view?

They do lay out the cards when they change cards - in sequence from the box, and check for flaws and count. Standard procedure as other casinos.

What rivrat77 probably saw that's not in sequence is when there are no players. Some dealers leave the unused cards in the shoe. Some lay them out.

[KJ]

I have no idea. But this lack of regulation is exactly the reason why I don't play Indian casino as well as any kind of cruise ships. In this corporate era, any casino that falls under some sort state regulation has too much to lose. large fine, even their license could be in jeopardy. Indian casinos and cruise ships lack that oversight and as a result checks and balances.

But regardless of whether we are talking Indian casino or state regulated casino, the big penalty would be loss of faith by the gaming public if accusations of cheating where to be shown. That could be a death blow to any casino. And even strong rumors could be quite damaging. So while your options are limited as far as contacting some regulatory oversight commission, if I was reasonably sure, I would contact all the local media outlets. Let them investigate. And if the casino doesn't co-operate, that too would be bad publicity. If nothing else, that might just curtail such activity at least for a while.

[RobinHood21]

If you don't know casino personnel can easily sign up for this forum. For example, myself. Now if you actually have or had a case it is probably gone if they catch wind if your accusations.


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[Aslan]

I have video proof as well as pictures of the most outrageous hands, and 3 witnesses. Again. I am with you 1 Mil. percent. It looks like that anyone with any mathematical sense can tell when there are a table full of number cards and one face card. You would think. The running count for the 3 hours I stood there was each and every time mid to upper 20s. Thats impossible with 6 normal decks. The last deck I would have bet my home,my kids, and my private parts on in Las Vegas. Each hand when a player would stand on a 14 against a dealers 4 5 or 6 the dealer would pull numbers to 17 18 19 or 20 sometimes 7 cards to outrun the them. Here in NC that property is governed by the Cherokee Indians. There is no state authority whatsoever on Indian land here to regulate them. The only option that after 3 days of online researching that I have done is to A. Call the FBI or B. Call Caesars management.

The FBI is probably the best investigative body to which to report these alleged crimes. But FYI:

The Indian Gaming Regulatory Act (Pub.L. 100–497, 25 U.S.C. § 2701 et seq.) is a 1988 United States federal law that establishes the jurisdictional framework that governs Indian gaming. There was no federal gaming structure before this act.[1] The stated purposes of the act include providing a legislative basis for the operation/regulation of Indian gaming, protecting gaming as a means of generating revenue for the tribes, encouraging economic development of these tribes, and protecting the enterprises from negative influences (such as organized crime).[2] The law established the National Indian Gaming Commission and gave it a regulatory mandate. The law also delegated new authority to the U.S. Department of the Interior and created new federal offenses, giving the U.S. Department of Justice authority to prosecute them.

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The Act's purpose is to provide a statutory basis for the operation of gaming by tribes to promote tribal economic development, self-sufficiency, and strong tribal governments. IGRA provides a basis for the regulation of Indian gaming adequate to: shield it from organized crime and corrupting influences; ensure that the tribe is the primary beneficiary of gaming revenues; and ensure Indian gaming operations are fair and honest for the operator and the players.

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In February 2003, in an effort to identify and direct resources to Indian gaming matters, the FBI and NIGC created the Indian Gaming Work Group (IGWG). The IGWG's purpose is to identify resources needed to address the most pressing criminal violations in the area of Indian gaming.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_...Regulatory_Act

[ZenKinG]

This past Saturday night I witnessed along with my fiance and two of our best friends what I thought I would never see. We went to Harrahs Cherokee to play. After the first shoe I could tell something was amiss. After the second,being a counter, I told my fiance to get up from the table. The next 3 hours I wanted to make absolutely sure what I saw wasn't a fluke. The next shoe with one deck left had a running count of plus 26! All that came next were neutral cards and a few 2s 3s and aces.After the first two hours we asked a pit boss if we could speak to a manager. A young man came down and without letting him know we knew asked one simple question. On the next shoe since its a hand shuffled deck would you mind turning the cards all face up so we can see them? Of course he refused. So over the course of the next hour I managed to get several pics thank goodness of the entire table 6 hands in play with one lone Jack as the face card as just one example! The count after the entire shoe each and every time had a true count of plus 20 or more. I do have proof and witnesses to this and I need advice on what steps to take now. We did not loose thank goodness but a couple hundred before I caught it. But the other poor souls never had a chance. Any thoughts?

By the way, how many aces came out? Aces are high cards as well, and with a running count of 26 with one deck left, it is not guaranteed you will see 10s, as long as aces still come out, it's not that unusual. How many aces came out? Maybe the running count of 26 was very ace rich.

[Aslan]

If you don't know casino personnel can easily sign up for this forum. For example, myself. Now if you actually have or had a case it is probably gone if they catch wind if your accusations.


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If the problem is gone, that means this forum has successfully helped police the gaming industry. In some cases, maybe the forum is the best way to counter casino cheating, rather than the sometimes politically charged arena of Commissions and other governmental agencies, which may have many priorities, some of them running counter to just protecting the public. But alerting these agencies/commissions is a vital part of the process, and the picture proof that one of the posters captured would serve as evidence to these groups that criminal activity did occur, whether or not it currently does, or whether or not it can be prosecuted based on the evidence provided.

[rivrat77]

by the way, this is coming from a person that does believe casinos cheat 100 percent on a very very small scale especially if they are 100 percent sure you are an advantage player if they are a real small shop that can't handle the swings you bring to the table by being there. I jsut started a thread on this at bj21, but i didn't name casinos cause my thoughts where just acusations and they were pretty weak at that.

I doubt big casinos are going to risk everything to cheat some red chip and green chippers.

Let me assure you. You are wrong. Ive played at every casino on this planet. Of course we all have had terrible runs. Got out ran. you name it. A deck can not stay at a plus 20 or better for 3 hours with few to no cards left. Let me explain what I have found out. The Cherokee Nation here is not regulated by any state ran agency since it is on Indian land. They regulate themselves. The shoe for the 3 hours i taped and photographed was rigged. There was one other 25 min table that was the same but I was unable to prove it on that one. With this one I can. So call bullshit all ya want. That being said explain this to me. Is it possible for 3 hours that each time the shoe comes up plus 20s? If you can tell me how thats possible I would love to know.