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Thread: Can ASMs be rigged to advantage the house?

  1. #27


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    Just answering the basic question of "Can they be rigged?" I say yes. What proof do you have that it contains six FULL decks of cards? What proof do you have that some ten valued cards were pulled and replaced with low cards? I guess on land the gaming commission can do surprise inspections but who regulates the cruise ships?
    I was on a Carnival cruise last September. I played every single day along with several other passengers who were regulars at the tables every day. I not only watched my own hand but the other regulars as well. We all played excellent basic strategy. We hit, stayed or doubled whenever called for. Of course the house still has a small edge but it would take them a long time to chip away at your money.
    I strongly believe that they had some ten value cards removed from those machines. It was almost suicide to double down. The dealer rarely busted on an up 5 or 6 card. And if you got a 19 or 20 it wasn't unusual for a push. The other players and I would just look at each other in total disbelief. And this was not just one evening or an isolated run of bad luck. This happened all week long.
    In February I was on another cruise with a different cruise line. Thankfully the tables were all hand shuffled decks. I played all week on the same stake and cashed out with a profit.
    I know that wasn't your specific question but the CSM's can be "rigged" as far as I'm concerned.

  2. #28


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    Quote Originally Posted by blondeboyz View Post
    Just answering the basic question of "Can they be rigged?" I say yes. What proof do you have that it contains six FULL decks of cards? What proof do you have that some ten valued cards were pulled and replaced with low cards? I guess on land the gaming commission can do surprise inspections but who regulates the cruise ships?
    I was on a Carnival cruise last September. I played every single day along with several other passengers who were regulars at the tables every day. I not only watched my own hand but the other regulars as well. We all played excellent basic strategy. We hit, stayed or doubled whenever called for. Of course the house still has a small edge but it would take them a long time to chip away at your money.
    I strongly believe that they had some ten value cards removed from those machines. It was almost suicide to double down. The dealer rarely busted on an up 5 or 6 card. And if you got a 19 or 20 it wasn't unusual for a push. The other players and I would just look at each other in total disbelief. And this was not just one evening or an isolated run of bad luck. This happened all week long.
    In February I was on another cruise with a different cruise line. Thankfully the tables were all hand shuffled decks. I played all week on the same stake and cashed out with a profit.
    I know that wasn't your specific question but the CSM's can be "rigged" as far as I'm concerned.
    Good point, but this has nothing to do with ASM's, if the casino wants to cheat replacing pictures for low cards, they just do it, but please, has nothing to do with the ASM's system.

    These machines have no sensors to detect 10's/A's/2-9! for Christ's sake!!!
    Blackjack will test your soul, your character, and the very fiber of your being.
    Don Schlesinger.

  3. #29
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    This thread is insane and im on barg with this one. But i do like the fact this site is getting more action from serious posters. Stupid to even speculate that cheating can happen in asm. These counters in australia , how much of a sample size did they have? Im breaking even for 350 hours or so right now, do I think im being cheated, absolutely not. The reality is im playing marginal games aggressively so breaking even for along time is a possibility. Only thing that i can control is starting to travel to places that have better games which i have to play for smaller stakes. Its rought the same EV but the swings should be less. This is how i react to prolonged break even periods, i don't contemplate cheating. All i do is test my game when i get home and know that im playing well and thats all that can be done. Its all part of the game and unfortunetly with card counting bj it would take a massive sample size to get any real data. If its going to tilt you emotionally or bother you that you feel the possibility of being cheated is present, then go play another table or casino.

    You can also buy an asm or csm if you have like extra cash not being used. I have not done this yet but im probably going to be enlighten with what i find when i decide to make the purchase. Most of us aren't stupid here and can probably find some exploitive qualities. But right now im just trying to build a massive stable bankroll that can turn into a nest egg that i can do small experimentations with to be able to get the same percentage growth as I am getting now with a smaller bankroll. If i can't find anything then i prob just pissed away 10-30k, so be it.

    But until someone has bought one and shares here (that would never happen) this thread really serves no purpose

  4. #30


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    Quote Originally Posted by mofungoo View Post
    It is technically possible that an ASM could be re-engineered to shuffle in a non-random way,
    In casinos' defense, they can still claim the shoe is randomly shuffled by ASM, just using different algorithms. In my observation, ASM is in truly random mode more than 75% of the time. The pit boss only came to push the button and change the shuffling mode when they spot well known AP or the table is losing big money.

    By the way, the easiest way to detect the ASM "evil mode" is see if doubling 11, the player gets ace or small card most of the times. This is because to have two card 11, both can't be ten. Since you are in the non-ten zone, you are unlikely to get the ten no matter how high TC is. Also, if players hit 12 composed of a face card and a 2 and often get a face card no matter how low the TC is, there is a tens clumping.

    In summary, face card clump makes counting less effective because the likelihood of getting a face card depends more on the zone than the true count.

  5. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjarg View Post
    Is that a claim you make based on your vast experience dealing with Shufflemaster's machines?
    Or on something you read on the internet of which you probably only understood the title?
    Don't take this as an insult, but when you know nothing about something, it is better to keep your mouth shut.

    I will tell you what: I can give you unlimited access to several of this machines for unlimited time.
    I'll give you 20:1 on whatever bet you chose if you can rig the machine to cheat in any sort of way that would generate a casino advantage.
    You can bring an army of engineers with you if you want.
    Of course the machine cannot be all disarmed and pluged to 10 computers.
    It has to look the exact same way as it does when new and being used in a casino.
    What do you say?

    Now, before you lose your money, try using your brain for a minute instead of repeating like a parrot what you read on other boards and try to imagine what could happen if you ACTUALLY acomplished this task.
    Not to hard to imagine is it?
    Im actually rooting for you on this one buddy.
    We all are.
    Listen fella. Take the time to read the patent number that I provided. You are the one that is talking without knowing. READ the patent and then tell me who's the dummy.
    Please stop the dumb talk, read the patent, and get back to me.
    Also, quit talking like you are representing a collective group with your "we all are" comment. I doubt if others want that association with you.

  6. #32
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    I agree, I believesome casinos rig their ASMs. How is anyone gonna find out anyway? I doubt the gaming commission even checks up regularly or at all. And what are they going to accuse the casino of? Clumping? Casino will just say that's how it was randomized. Also players will never know they are being cheated as well if casinos do it in moderation or even if they do it every day. Gamblers will just keep coming back thinking they are 'due' to win.

  7. #33


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    Shuffle Master owns a patent based upon "Counter Measures" against card counters! This can be read by anyone wishing to search the patents. I'm not saying that Casino's are using this technology, in fact, I strongly doubt they would take that great of a risk. If they were in fact running this program, then it would behove them to deal all of the cards and not ever half shoe us. Tthree is absolutely correct with everything he wrote about "Coolers", there are in fact 28 different combinations of card arrangements that enable a high percentage of Dealer vs Player wins. Again, coolers were used back in the day when hand shuffling was the staple. Even then, only the best of Dealers were capable of cheating this way. I am an AP of many years, I too become frusterated at times. The wild fluctuations makes us believe and think things we shouldn't at times. If your truly an AP you already believe in yourself and trust what you have learned. For the others out there prepare yourselves for many set backs. Be patient....Good cards to ya....

  8. #34


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    Quote Originally Posted by muffdiver View Post
    Listen fella. Take the time to read the patent number that I provided. You are the one that is talking without knowing. READ the patent and then tell me who's the dummy.
    Please stop the dumb talk, read the patent, and get back to me.
    Also, quit talking like you are representing a collective group with your "we all are" comment. I doubt if others want that association with you.
    I think there is no question as to who the dummy is, but lets try making it even clearer.
    So, you are a big casino in the US, and you call Bally to purchase some of their fine MD3 shufflers.
    You will probably talk to Bob and have a couple of drinks with him before closing the purchase.
    You get the machines.
    Now, explain to us step by step how it is you rig them to cheat.
    Dont tell me they can recognize the cards or any crap like that.
    Since you know so much about them Im sure you can talk specifics.
    Take us step by step as to what it is you would do with the machine (including everything, what buttons you push, everything), to set it up to cheat.
    I cant wait to see your answer.

    PS: For those who know Bally you should know Bry is reading this thread and LAUGHING HIS ASS OFF at the idiocy of some of the posters here.

  9. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by RollingStoned View Post
    I think I read it in BJA3 [but perhaps in a different book or online article]....there's a way to arrange a deck so the dealer wins every hand, in a heads up situation (1 player 1 hand). Doesn't matter where the player cuts, he will lose every hand, even if he makes un-ordinary hits or stays. There is one exception where the player would hit and end up with a push. Every other situation is a player loss.

    Do casinos do this? Maybe there's one casino in some weird location that has a single deck game with an ASM shuffler that'll shuffle the cards in this way once every X shuffles when there's only 1 player playing 1 hand. I say 'maybe' as in....it's POSSIBLE, but kinda like the flipping a coin on heads 100 times in a row kind of possible.


    As for sorting or clumping cards in ASMs so the tens and aces aren't near each other, or 789s are clumped and 23456s are clumped......it's possible. But I think there is too much that can "go wrong". Either the ASM distributors program the machine to do this clumping (which'd be illegal for them, which would be stupid), a boss or some kind of management would have to program the machine to do it (which would be bad....because when people [lets say pit boss] knows about this, it's very hard to keep them from keeping the secret from anyone or ratting out the casino). The casino already has an edge on these games....and the way most people play, they have a huge edge. It's also tough for a casino to keep players returning who are constantly losing a lot. The casino is better off milking money from their players than slaughtering them for a short term win. But then again, we see over and over again how casinos tend to avoid the "smart" answer but choose to do stupid things....so who knows.
    I agree with your sentiments but merely pointed out it is possible. I doubt any casino in the US would tamper with their rented ShuffleMaster ASMs. ShuffleMaster has nothing to gain and everything to lose and would rat the casino out the first time they discovered that there was tampering. What is more likely is the players that say it is happening notice some trends and then once they spot the deck "anomaly" they put too much emphasis on what is part of a normal randomness and remember every time they see what normally wouldn't be noticed much. This affect causes them to perceive a higher incidence than before because they notice it every time instead of searching their memory and retrieving a small portion of the times it happened. It would be like saying that the yo in craps come in groups. The craps ploppy doesn't notice how many times a yo wasn't followed by a yo but if one is repeated they remember it more vividly. You get a bunch of craps players that swear a yo is more likely to be rolled if it was rolled on the previous roll. Now the reasoned mind refuses to buy this but when you deal with an ASM everything happens in this mysterious box were nothing can be seen and many of the same reasoned minds buy a gambling myth in the same way. Did any of them do the math to see what frequency you expect for the events and their standard deviation and then spend enough hours to gather data with a small enough standard error to give significant and meaningful results? No they just buy into the gambling myth with no proof and a selective memory like the craps ploppy did.

  10. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigplayer View Post
    The casino doesn't need to rig an ASM for an advantage. They already have the advantage. Do you think Shufflemaster has a backdoor to their shuffllers that a casino employee can switch on for cheating? Do you think casinos have hackers in-house who can arrange for cold decks? You guys are dreaming unless you're talking about Russia or Bulgaria, but if you're in the U.S. it's random and random does not mean evenly distributed. Clumping is part of randomness.
    Here is a voice of reason that understands what I am talking about. Maybe in a country where the casino owns their shuffle machines or can do whatever they want with no repercussions. If that is the case it is possible but not in the US.

  11. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by muffdiver View Post
    I personally don't think that most US casinos would take the chance of being caught using this technique. I'm simply pointing out that it is possible to rig the machines. There are some casinos that aren't closely watched by strict gaming commissions. It's up to each of us to decide how far we trust each of them.
    My local store is Native ran (sovereign nation) and I don't question the integrity of their game but it appears there are unscrupulous operators in some locations.
    If they use a ShuffleMaster ASM it will almost certainly be rented and ShuffleMaster will not allow their integrity to be compromised and all their machines become avoided by every BJ player so some casino can stack the deck. They could be put out of business overnight if that were allowed to happen.

  12. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjarg View Post
    I think there is no question as to who the dummy is, but lets try making it even clearer.
    So, you are a big casino in the US, and you call Bally to purchase some of their fine MD3 shufflers.
    You will probably talk to Bob and have a couple of drinks with him before closing the purchase.
    You get the machines.
    Now, explain to us step by step how it is you rig them to cheat.
    Dont tell me they can recognize the cards or any crap like that.
    Since you know so much about them Im sure you can talk specifics.
    Take us step by step as to what it is you would do with the machine (including everything, what buttons you push, everything), to set it up to cheat.
    I cant wait to see your answer.

    PS: For those who know Bally you should know Bry is reading this thread and LAUGHING HIS ASS OFF at the idiocy of some of the posters here.
    You obviously refuse to read the patent so there's no sense in trying to reason with you.
    Why do you refuse to read it?

  13. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by BJGenius007 View Post
    By the way, the easiest way to detect the ASM "evil mode" is see if doubling 11, the player gets ace or small card most of the times.
    This happens to me a lot. I have runs were all I catch on my 11 double is an A.

    Then other times I get a T a lot when I double an 11. I guess the shuffle machine isn't in evil mode then.

    Quote Originally Posted by BJGenius007 View Post
    Also, if players hit 12 composed of a face card and a 2 and often get a face card no matter how low the TC is, there is a tens clumping.
    Wow, I have noticed this a lot at the same store. There is a high count yet a small card still comes out. That can't happen. I have had it happen at all the wrong times. The dealer has a 5 up and flips a T then hits a 6 at a high count. That can't happen but it happens all the way until the end of the high count. That casino must be cheating me with their shuffle machine. I lose a lot in no time.

    Wait a minute they hand shuffle at that casino. What I want to know is how they train their dealers to go into "evil mode" some of the time with their shuffles. I bet that takes extra training.

    Or perhaps "evil shoes" are part of randomness and that mysterious box they call an ASM makes you think randomness means you always get a high card in a high count like when the ASM is not in "evil mode" or the mysterious box you don't understand is cheating you. Some shoes you get the cards you need and some shoes the house does. It is not evil it is a game called blackjack.
    Last edited by Three; 05-13-2014 at 01:33 PM.

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