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Thread: Can ASMs be rigged to advantage the house?

  1. #1
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    Can ASMs be rigged to advantage the house?

    As the title suggests, I was wondering if anyone was aware of, or would know about, ASM shuffling algorithms and whether or not they could be set up to advantage the house in some way. After a few counters I knew swore something fishy was happening at our local store, I went there recently and found the count rise quickly up to +41 halfway through the 8 deck shoe. After playing, and getting crushed significantly, I began to think about the merit of what my fellow players had said. I know my sample size is totally irrelevant, but when several players came to me with the same stories after a few sessions' worth of play, I thought maybe it was possible. But how?

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    Impossible if all 8 decks are legit. Almost every casino I have been in allows for a player cut. So even if they somehow rigged the cards for the casino, a player cut would turn the order into "out-of-order". I guess they could rig it to where a clump of small cards were together, so that the count would continually rise for a period of time, but it would be such a waste of time for the casinos to do all that nonsense. Only AP's are going to be effected by the influx of the count because they are the only ones that will be raising their bets. Your average Joe will be flat betting through the entire time. And not only that, but they would be risking major bad press if anything like that were to come to light. If any customers found out that they were "rigging" the shoes, absolutely no one would come to play.

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    ASM's are capable of sorting the cards into the order by suit and rank. It isn't much of a change in programming to get it to sort the cards into any order you want. In the US these machines are rented and the consequences of cheating to both the casino and the company that owns the machine makes it not likely to happen. If you are on an Indian reservation or out of the US or if the casino owns the ASM the chances go up.

    At a gaming convention a long time ago a cooler order was demonstrated that had the dealer winning every hand. If an unusual play occurred the deck would quickly go back to the cooler order. I didn't think it was possible so I checked it out and it was true. Of course what you are describing seems aimed at counters. Can the casino and its overseers be trusted to deal a fair game?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koz84 View Post
    I went there recently and found the count rise quickly up to +41 halfway through the 8 deck shoe.
    If this is true, I dont understand what it is you are complaining about.
    Could you please tell me where this game is played at?
    I will be there tomorrow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bjarg View Post
    If this is true, I dont understand what it is you are complaining about.
    Could you please tell me where this game is played at?
    I will be there tomorrow.
    This sounds like heaven to me. Sit out the first half of the shoe then bam.

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    Or set you up with the first half shoe and then comes the cooler order were you lose every hand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    Or set you up with the first half shoe and then comes the cooler order were you lose every hand.
    How could that ever happen?
    If they are rigging the machine like it is being said they do, then the clumps should be always in the same place.
    Theres absolutely no way to rig the machine to do that in a random manner.
    And if it existed a way, you should be very stupid to fall for it.
    If you play the first half of the shoe and the count ends -41 Im guessing you wouldnt bet big on the second half now would you?

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    ASM's are capable of sorting the cards into the order by suit and rank. It isn't much of a change in programming to get it to sort the cards into any order you want. In the US these machines are rented and the consequences of cheating to both the casino and the company that owns the machine makes it not likely to happen. If you are on an Indian reservation or out of the US or if the casino owns the ASM the chances go up.

    At a gaming convention a long time ago a cooler order was demonstrated that had the dealer winning every hand. If an unusual play occurred the deck would quickly go back to the cooler order. I didn't think it was possible so I checked it out and it was true. Of course what you are describing seems aimed at counters. Can the casino and its overseers be trusted to deal a fair game?
    The most common ASM rigs on 6/8 deck shoes are

    1. Tens clumps: Randomly shuffle the cards like it is supposed to. Then add one or two steps to create tens clumps and 7/8/9 clumps. Basically ASM divides the shoe into 8 to 10 piles and move some face cards in each pile to the end of each pile to create 8 to 10 tens clumps. (Even true count is high, you likely get a small card because ten is moved to the back.) The end-result is that face cards are close together and small cards are close together, too. To enhance the result, there could be one additional step to create a few 7/8/9 clumps. So basically the shoe will make face cards much more likely together, 7/8/9 likely together and 2/3/4/5/6 more likely together. When cards come from the tens clump area, players will likely get 20 but dealer, too. So it is a push. In the small card clump area, dealers likely make their hands because of the small cards. In this case, you like to see 6 to 8 tens clumps and one or two 7/8/9 clumps. And players get very few BJ because tens are separate from aces.

    2. Treat 8D as four double decks and 6D as three double decks. The ASM sorts the cards to decks. Then shuffle two decks each time. You will see TC hardly fluctuate in hours or never.

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by BJGenius007 View Post
    The most common ASM rigs on 6/8 deck shoes are

    1. Tens clumps: Randomly shuffle the cards like it is supposed to. Then add one or two steps to create tens clumps and 7/8/9 clumps. Basically ASM divides the shoe into 8 to 10 piles and move some face cards in each pile to the end of each pile to create 8 to 10 tens clumps. (Even true count is high, you likely get a small card because ten is moved to the back.) The end-result is that face cards are close together and small cards are close together, too. To enhance the result, there could be one additional step to create a few 7/8/9 clumps. So basically the shoe will make face cards much more likely together, 7/8/9 likely together and 2/3/4/5/6 more likely together. When cards come from the tens clump area, players will likely get 20 but dealer, too. So it is a push. In the small card clump area, dealers likely make their hands because of the small cards. In this case, you like to see 6 to 8 tens clumps and one or two 7/8/9 clumps. And players get very few BJ because tens are separate from aces.

    2. Treat 8D as four double decks and 6D as three double decks. The ASM sorts the cards to decks. Then shuffle two decks each time. You will see TC hardly fluctuate in hours or never.
    Oh my god... you are by far the biggest idiot here.
    You have no idea what you are talking about.
    I strongly recommend everybody to ignore the load of crap this guy is spitting out.
    Hes just a terrible player who hit a bad run against an ASM and needs to justify it by believing the casino is cheating.
    I seriously hope you go broke soon so you stop posting and spare us from your stupidity.
    Last edited by bjarg; 05-12-2014 at 11:24 AM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BJGenius007 View Post
    The most common ASM rigs on 6/8 deck shoes are

    1. Tens clumps: Randomly shuffle the cards like it is supposed to. Then add one or two steps to create tens clumps and 7/8/9 clumps. Basically ASM divides the shoe into 8 to 10 piles and move some face cards in each pile to the end of each pile to create 8 to 10 tens clumps. (Even true count is high, you likely get a small card because ten is moved to the back.) The end-result is that face cards are close together and small cards are close together, too. To enhance the result, there could be one additional step to create a few 7/8/9 clumps. So basically the shoe will make face cards much more likely together, 7/8/9 likely together and 2/3/4/5/6 more likely together. When cards come from the tens clump area, players will likely get 20 but dealer, too. So it is a push. In the small card clump area, dealers likely make their hands because of the small cards. In this case, you like to see 6 to 8 tens clumps and one or two 7/8/9 clumps. And players get very few BJ because tens are separate from aces.

    2. Treat 8D as four double decks and 6D as three double decks. The ASM sorts the cards to decks. Then shuffle two decks each time. You will see TC hardly fluctuate in hours or never.
    It's interesting you say that as most, if not all of the players I spoke to, said something along those lines. They noticed clump patterns and would get a lot of the mostly neutral cards along with their 10s and As at extremely high count, or just combinations of the 7s, 8s and 9s, giving them pretty shitty hands. Is your assertion justified at all or is this an assumption you have? I'd like to know about ASM clumping, if it exists.

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