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Thread: Shoe dealt blackjack in the UK.

  1. #53


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    Quote Originally Posted by chucky baby View Post
    I don't think many on this forum have the interest or initiative to make the long trip to UK. I think most participants on this forum stick to US casinos.
    I would fully agree with that. Of course, you never know when your billionaire buddy will stop by the house and ask you to go on an weekend trip to be his/her partner.

    chucky baby wrote:

    "I can assure you that there are plenty of AP's in UK. Over the years I've trained at least 50...many on my own teams. My estimate of current British AP's would be at least 75.
    Take a trip over here and see for yourself. I have no idea who is Francis Salmon and John May..at least not under those names."

    Sorry, that was just meant to be a poor attempt at good innocent humor.

  2. #54


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    Quote Originally Posted by chucky baby View Post
    I don't think many on this forum have the interest or initiative to make the long trip to UK. I think most participants on this forum stick to US casinos.
    You think wrong.
    I can assure you there are several people who read this forums that wouldnt hesitate for a second to jump to a good opportunity if it was exposed publicly, no matter where in the world.
    Some of those are team managers that have the time and the bankroll to kill that game.
    If you have a candy store it might be a good idea for you not to talk about it publicly.

  3. #55
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    This is interesting. So we have rumors/reports from players overseas that their hard earned winnings were confiscated by counting cards.

    But AP’s who live there are saying that they do not confiscate winnings by counting cards, and if they do, the gambling commission quickly reconciles the situation.

  4. #56
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    So it sounds like these places just bully you and it can be rectified with the gambling commission?

  5. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackjackFeign View Post
    So it sounds like these places just bully you and it can be rectified with the gambling commission?
    Ivey never got his winnings back through the commission or the courts.

  6. #58


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    Another thread with many opinions, too few of them based on any knowledge.

    I know of several cases where UK casinos refused to pay. And I know of a couple of cases where casinos paid out, although it was obvious the players were APs.

    I also suggest listening to GWAE " Professional card counter Joe". Brief mention of an Irish player who was denied winnings (upheld by court) and Richard mentions similar UK cases. I can't remember which episode, but the UK was discussed there as well - possibly during a discussion of the Phil Ivey case.
    These are not morons who simply left their money behind without trying to get it back.
    And no, to the best of my knowledge no-one is spreading fake news to protect the "amazing candy stores" in the UK.

    It is obvious that UK casinos can and do try to withhold winnings/buyin. I have no idea how often this occurs, but it does. It seems to be a freeroll for casinos - worst case, they'll pay out with zero consequences.

    There is no point in debating this with someone who "just can't believe it". Believe whatever you want, and make your choice.
    As a comparison, people (including many APs) play in Indian casinos - while it's an accepted fact that Indian casinos can do more or less whatever they want and are notoriously difficult (if not impossible) to sue.

  7. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by bj21abc View Post
    Another thread with many opinions, too few of them based on any knowledge.

    I know of several cases where UK casinos refused to pay. And I know of a couple of cases where casinos paid out, although it was obvious the players were APs.

    I also suggest listening to GWAE " Professional card counter Joe". Brief mention of an Irish player who was denied winnings (upheld by court) and Richard mentions similar UK cases. I can't remember which episode, but the UK was discussed there as well - possibly during a discussion of the Phil Ivey case.
    These are not morons who simply left their money behind without trying to get it back.
    And no, to the best of my knowledge no-one is spreading fake news to protect the "amazing candy stores" in the UK.

    It is obvious that UK casinos can and do try to withhold winnings/buyin. I have no idea how often this occurs, but it does. It seems to be a freeroll for casinos - worst case, they'll pay out with zero consequences.

    There is no point in debating this with someone who "just can't believe it". Believe whatever you want, and make your choice.
    As a comparison, people (including many APs) play in Indian casinos - while it's an accepted fact that Indian casinos can do more or less whatever they want and are notoriously difficult (if not impossible) to sue.
    I’m just curious, the cases that you are talking about where UK casinos confiscated winnings, did the casino refuse to pay because the AP’s were just straight card counting, or was it a more elaborate AP play? How many figures was it for? If it was straight up counting, what happened when the players filed a grievance with the gambling commission?

    Also about Indian reservations in the United States, what you’re saying is true. It’s actually interesting that you don’t see more cases (if any) of tribal casinos refusing to pay out because of card counting. I guess tribes just figure the negative press is not worth it?

    I did hear of one scenario where a team of four guys took a tribal property for some poker game they were hole carding for $250,000. They sent one guy to cash the chips, he didnt return, so the next guy went. He didn’t come back either, and then the next guy went until finally all four ended up at the casino. The shift manager brought them all downstairs and said “were not paying you until you tell us how you beat the game, and what you exploited.” So the AP’s gave in and showed the shift manager what they were doing (obviously the specifics were not told in the story). The casino then paid them out and told them not to come back.
    Last edited by BlackjackFeign; 05-22-2018 at 11:54 PM.

  8. #60


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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackjackFeign View Post
    I’m just curious, the cases that you are talking about where UK casinos confiscated winnings, did the casino refuse to pay because the AP’s were just straight card counting, or was it a more elaborate AP play? How many figures was it for? If it was straight up counting, what happened when the players filed a grievance with the gambling commission?

    Also about Indian reservations in the United States, what you’re saying is true. It’s actually interesting that you don’t see more cases (if any) of tribal casinos refusing to pay out because of card counting. I guess tribes just figure the negative press is not worth it?

    I did hear of one scenario where a team of four guys took a tribal property for some poker game they were hole carding for $250,000. They sent one guy to cash the chips, he didnt return, so the next guy went. He didn’t come back either, and then the next guy went until finally all four ended up at the casino. The shift manager brought them all downstairs and said “were not paying you until you tell us how you beat the game, and what you exploited.” So the AP’s gave in and showed the shift manager what they were doing (obviously the specifics were not told in the story). The casino then paid them out and told them not to come back.
    An anecdote to lighten the conversation of this thread....I was merrily counting away in an Indian casino when the proverbial tap on the shoulder happened and I was backroomed in the manager's officee.,

    MANAGER: They tell me you're counting cards.
    ME: (thinking I'm way ahead of expectations in this small game, so...) Yeah it's true I'm counting cards so I guess you want me to stop playing blackjack?
    MANAGER: NO NO, you can still keep playing blackjack...Just stop counting the cards!!

    Impossible for me to do that....so I left in a bemused state of wonder.

  9. #61


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    Very funny. Probably like you, whenever I see two or more cards together playing any card game my subconscious is keeping a count

  10. #62
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    My, my . . . how this thread has developed. For what it’s worth, for the benefit of visitors to the UK, I think it’s worth clarifying that the UKGC make it very clear that they will not become embroiled in legal disputes and limit their responses to complaints that licencees have breached the conditions of their operators licence. I’ve no direct experience to fall back on, but I suspect that withholding winnings without good reason (ie no procedural irregularities had taken place, such as would be the case for card counting) would constitute such a breach.

    In the Ivey case, irregularities had clearly taken place (that were later ruled to have constituted “cheating”) and so the UKGC may well have considered it that case that no breach of licensing conditions had taken place and they had no grounds to sanction the licencee. As Ivey’s original stake was returned in full, there could be no question of the licencee holding on to money unlawfully, and Ivey was free to resort to law to get his withheld winnings paid. We all know the outcome of that.

    I think what I wrote earlier carries . . . if you are unfortunate and have a casino refuse to return stake money that has been put on deposit, it becomes a case of how much you’re prepared to write off, and whether you’re prepared to put your identity in the public forum. The issue of withheld winnings is a different matter

  11. #63


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    Hi Does anybody know if aspers casino in Newcastle Upon Tyne offer shoe games or is it all csm now.

  12. #64
    Senior Member dalmatian's Avatar
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    Can you even count games in UK? I thought they just take ur money.

  13. #65


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    Anyone still counting in the UK?

    I'm planning a trip to London soon. If time allows, I'll be heading into Leicester square to have a look at the condition of the games.

    Kind Regards

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