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Thread: Shoe dealt blackjack in the UK.

  1. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post

    When I was in London, (almost 3 yrs. ago) I played only in the better Private Clubs.

    I played with a (famous billionaire) Poker Player, etc. but the important thing to understand is that the casinos CAN simply take your chips a d all money on deposit (read that as all your money) by simply stating, You were Counting Cards and that is against our rules. I watched it happen to my partner - to the tune of >$100,000 (U.S.) before his connections managed to get it returned 2 days later.
    I have a teammate who I was surprised to learn does not play in London, and completely steers clear of it because of these rules of confiscation. I’m not really sure how that’s legal, and I wasn’t aware that that was a problem for professional card counters in London.

    How serious of an issue is it? Should card counters just completely not play anywhere in London because of the fear of confiscation?

  2. #28


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    Quote Originally Posted by ummagumma View Post
    I didn't say there was anything wrong with 6D but you said when you were in town they had 4D which no one has in the UK now....

    Why play at a private club when you have to hand over info about yourself ?

    All the registered clubs in the UK are listed freely here: https://secure.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/PublicRegister click on the license data button and you can download the Excel file
    I have seen 4D games in London.

    A potential reason for playing at private clubs is that if you don't, you really limit your options for playing as there are only a few places in London that you can get into without showing ID.

  3. #29


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    Quote Originally Posted by NB10 View Post
    I have seen 4D games in London.

    A potential reason for playing at private clubs is that if you don't, you really limit your options for playing as there are only a few places in London that you can get into without showing ID.
    When did you last play there ?

  4. #30


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushie View Post
    When you play with Phil Ivey and Cheng Yin Sun there's bound to be trouble :P
    Billionaire ?

  5. #31
    Senior Member UK-21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackjackFeign View Post
    ... I’m not really sure how that’s legal, and I wasn’t aware that that was a problem for professional card counters in London.
    It isn't - legal that is, IMHO. A couple of years ago I corresponded with a gent from the US who had had a substantial amount "confiscated" by an upmarket casino in London's West End (that shall remain nameless). After they withdrew the welcome mat, he stated they simply refused to pass back the balance of the funds he'd wired to them in advance of his visit. He took legal advice and came to the conclusion that it would cost more in legal costs to recover the amount in question than the amount in question.

    I disagreed. Civil action for the recovery of monies being held by a third party can be initiated at relatively low cost in the UK, and there's no need to appoint any legal counsel until after the action is filed, the initial fee stumped up and the case is in the queue for a hearing. Plaintiffs can initiate all of this themselves. If the defendent decides to avoid the ignominy of a court appearance and simply returns what's due, then that's the end of the matter - no need for a hearing, and no lawyer required. If the casino in question decided to defend the action, it would be interesting to hear their arguments that they were retaining the funds in question on the grounds that the plaintiff was in breach of contract in some way, as it would be nigh on impossible to prove (even on the basis of balance of probability - as opposed to beyond any reasonable doubt). It would certainly be entertaining to listen to the legal arguments. Personally I'd think they'd want to avoid the adverse publicity. The downside for the plaintiff is it would mean putting their head above the parapet and effectively outing themselves as an advantage player.

    At the end of the day I suppose it depends on how much you're willing to wipe your face over?
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  6. #32


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    A letter of demand with a deadline would be my first step. In Australia, if negotiations fail then a low cost tribunal could be used depending on the amount involved and the jurisdiction. If breach of contract or negligence can be successfully argued then it is no longer an ordinary debt recovery exercise but, I agree, this would be very difficult for a casino to prove. More than likely they are just trying it on which serves as a warning for anyone wishing to play in these places.

    No doubt you are aware of Mr Ivey's loss in the Supreme Court which we discussed some time ago. Interesting case and not an entirely unexpected result but there are a quite a few who disagree with the verdict especially in the United States. I wondered if he and his accomplice walked out after being up a few million whether they may have got away with it.
    Casino Enemy No.1

  7. #33
    Senior Member UK-21's Avatar
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    I believe in the Ivey case Crockfords returned the original amount he had put on account (can't recall the amount) but declined to pay the winnings. A big difference between this and refusing to return the plaintiff's money as a result of the "irregularities" that went on - whether they were in breach of formal contract terms or otherwise implied.
    Last edited by UK-21; 05-16-2018 at 12:02 AM. Reason: Nothing alleged at all - it all happened ! ! !
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  8. #34
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    So you’re saying clubs in the UK can’t confiscate winnings for card counting.

    But in practice do they? Have there been cases?

  9. #35


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    Quote Originally Posted by UK-21 View Post
    I believe in the Ivey case Crockfords returned the original amount he had put on account (can't recall the amount) but declined to pay the winnings. A big difference between this and refusing to return the plaintiff's money as a result of the "irregularities" that went on - whether they were in breach of formal contract terms or otherwise implied.
    Phil Ivey wired Crockfords one million pounds in advance which the casino refunded but they retained the winnings. They knew damn well he had the resources to challenge this decision in the highest court in the land so how would it have looked if confiscation was part of case? It sounds like this rule is applied with discretion which is most unfair and almost certainly illegal.
    Casino Enemy No.1

  10. #36
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    How much of a problem is confiscation for serious card counters in the UK? Is it an area of the world card counters need to avoid?

    I’m surprised there is no oversight or gambling authority such as a Gaming commission where one can file a grievance with when a “private club” steals your money. I really can’t think of ANY first world country that would just confiscate your winnings because they say so and too bad so sad. Even in third world countries where there are casinos and you could be sliced for a $1, at least casinos don’t just scam you and steal your money. It’s baffling to me that casinos have a right to steal from you in the UK for using your brain (not counting Ivey’s case which is obviously not what I am talking about and in a league of its own).
    Last edited by BlackjackFeign; 05-19-2018 at 04:05 AM.

  11. #37
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    Blackjack Feign, et al


    A few years ago I teamed up with a billionaire poker player in London.

    I bare witness to the FACT that a [private] British casino MAY confiscate a player's

    money on deposit, as well as accrued profits.


  12. #38


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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackjackFeign View Post
    How much of a problem is confiscation for serious card counters in the UK? Is it an area of the world card counters need to avoid?

    I’m surprised there is no oversight or gambling authority such as a Gaming commission where one can file a grievance with when a “private club” steals your money. I really can’t think of ANY first world country that would just confiscate your winnings because they say so and too bad so sad. Even in third world countries where there are casinos and you could be sliced for a $1, at least casinos don’t just scam you and steal your money. It’s baffling to me that casinos have a right to steal from you in the UK for using your brain (not counting Ivey’s case which is obviously not what I am talking about and in a league of its own).
    Just to set the record straight...ALL casinos in UK are regulated by the UK GAMBLING COMMISSION. Casinos do not confiscate winnings unless you have cheated. Card counting or any other mental skill in blackjack is perfectly legal. What people on this forum refer to as "private" casinos are like every other casino in UK, except they insist on you becoming a member to enter and play.

  13. #39


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    Quote Originally Posted by chucky baby View Post
    Just to set the record straight...ALL casinos in UK are regulated by the UK GAMBLING COMMISSION. Casinos do not confiscate winnings unless you have cheated. Card counting or any other mental skill in blackjack is perfectly legal. What people on this forum refer to as "private" casinos are like every other casino in UK, except they insist on you becoming a member to enter and play.
    Do they/are they allowed to have a rule that says card counting is not allowed? I've heard a few stories of people not being paid (I think it's been mentioned on a few different GWAE episodes and on here too).

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