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Thread: Accused of card counting without actually counting?

  1. #1


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    Accused of card counting without actually counting?

    I'm wondering if its common to get accused of counting if you aren't actually counting? Obviously, if people are responding on this forum they are probably counters so I would imagine the sample size on this forum is small for this question, but I was wondering if anyone knew of anyone who wasn't counting but was accused of counting.

    I've been playing blackjack at Mystic Lake Casino in Minnesota a decent amount recently because its pretty fun, and I just found it. Anyway, I have been winning money, I think I've won like 8 or 9 thousand in the past month. Last week while I was playing in the high stakes room this man came up to me and introduced himself and said he was the casino host, and if I needed anything I should contact him. I thought it was pretty cool as I didn't realize I was really a high roller. I was there again last night and about 20 minutes after I get there and am playing at a regular table, this man comes up to me (I recognize him as a pit boss, but he wasn't the pit boss at the table I was at), pulls me aside and says "I know that you're 'watching the count.'" At first I had no idea what that meant, I know what card counting is because I've seen all those movies like 21, rainman, hangover, but I initially thought "watching the count" meant like seeing what card the dealer had or something. I told him I wasn't and I don't know what he meant and he said something like "I know you're doing it and you know you're doing it. You can continue to do it, but just know that if you continue we will limit you to the table minimum." I didn't know what to say so I said okay and went back to the table. At first I was a little pissed that he was accusing me of cheating, but while I was at the table I realized that he was talking about card counting and I was actually kind of honored that he thought I could count the cards.

    Anyway, I came home last night and looked up things about card counting. I do fit a couple of the stereotypes of card counters. I'm a male in my twenties and I change my bet up a ton and sometimes will play two hands. But I don't really do any of the other things, I play by basic strategy all the time and don't change when I hit, stand, surrender, split, double, etc... I also tip the dealers and am not really quiet at all, in fact I think I talk to the dealers and pit bosses more than the other people playing, especially now that I've gotten to know some of them and they recognize me.

    I know casinos have cameras on every table and they must be able to look at the cards dealt and my changes in bets from all the times that I have played, and the odds that my bets would correlate with what a card counter would actually do seems astronomical. Did I get labeled as a card counter only because I won? Also, a big problem is that I don't know exactly what I'm doing except for varying my bets and winning, so I don't know how to stop doing that. Is he basically telling me that if I keep winning he's going to make me play the minimum bet?

  2. #2


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    Assuming you are playing rated, the pitboss may have just noticed that you seem to be on gods side of the bell curve and attributed that to being a counter.

  3. #3


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    lilB

    Do you have a Players Card you use when you sit down so that they know how much you've been winning? If so, it stands to reason that they pulled you up and saw +$8-10k this month and decided you must be a counter since that's too much for them to handle. (If not, they have been tracking you anyway with a John Doe.)

    I'd love to challenge them to pull the video and count the shoes/decks you won. If you're not counting, they will look like fools for backing off a lucky gambler from whom they will make money in the long run. If that happened once or twice, MAYBE they'd pull their heads out and realize that they are PARANOID for no reason about counting.

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    Yeah I'm using a player's card so that I can get comps and qualify for the promotions and things they have. You would think they would review the games before accusing me right?

  5. #5


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    Quote Originally Posted by lilbucky View Post
    Yeah I'm using a player's card so that I can get comps and qualify for the promotions and things they have. You would think they would review the games before accusing me right?
    From what I found it's an Indian Casino with some of the worst slot payouts in the area. I wouldn't expect much.

    Muckz

  6. #6


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    Quote Originally Posted by muckz View Post
    Assuming you are playing rated, the pitboss may have just noticed that you seem to be on gods side of the bell curve and attributed that to being a counter.
    How do I know if I'm playing rated or not?

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by lilbucky View Post
    How do I know if I'm playing rated or not?
    Rated = players card

    Muckz

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    A large bet spread is a telltale sign of counters playing solo. Most casino employees don't have the skill to count down a deck in real time so they look for a large bet spread as a sign of counting.

    I know of recreational players who were not counting being backed off after a good size win.

    Now that you've a little cash maybe it's time to take a break from the game and learn to play with an advantage.

    Or you can continue to play basic strategy and eventually give back your win.

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by Zach Black View Post
    A large bet spread is a telltale sign of counters playing solo. Most casino employees don't have the skill to count down a deck in real time so they look for a large bet spread as a sign of counting.

    I know of recreational players who were not counting being backed off after a good size win.

    Now that you've a little cash maybe it's time to take a break from the game and learn to play with an advantage.

    Or you can continue to play basic strategy and eventually give back your win.
    Yeah, I'm not going to go back there at least for a little while because it's just uncomfortable and not really fun anymore. I went there this morning because I had a half hour to spare and it was on the way to where I was going and it was just uncomfortable. I could tell that there was this guy who came over to watch and would walk away every once in a while then come back and he came back literally as soon as I cashed in my chips. I was trying to vary my bets less, but it just isn't as fun. I guess I should thank them for that because now I won't give back all the money. It's exciting for me when I can lose like 10 hands then make it all back in one or two hands.

    I don't really want to count mainly because it just doesn't seem that it's as much fun and I'd be so nervous the whole time and I wouldn't be able to both count and talk to other people which is where half the fun comes from.

  10. #10


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    This is exactly why casino managers have a reputation for being brainless idiots, costing their employers lots of money with their stupidity.

    Since you won a lot of money by being lucky, you should stop playing. In the long run, you are going to give back all your winnings, plus some.

  11. #11
    Senior Member bigplayer's Avatar
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    Typical and unfortunately all too common. Casinos advertise that "We Love Winners" but they really don't. Anyone who wins had better be such a horrible moron of a player that their win is obviously an accident. If you play anything remotely close to basic strategy and use any sort of money management strategies that winds up limiting your downside and get lucky you will very often be accused of being a skilled player and asked not to play anymore.

    It is what it is. Paranoia plain and simple.

  12. #12
    Senior Member bigplayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    This is exactly why casino managers have a reputation for being brainless idiots, costing their employers lots of money with their stupidity.

    Since you won a lot of money by being lucky, you should stop playing. In the long run, you are going to give back all your winnings, plus some.
    Or take your winnings and use them to play at another casino. Unfortunately the casino in question is a pretty nice venue and there is nothing close to that nice anywhere in that area.

  13. #13


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    lilB

    The Players Card allows them to track you and caused the back off when you got lucky. They are either too lazy to review the tapes (most likely) or it's been too long and they no longer have the tapes (less likely). It's a lot of work to find the tapes from your last winning visit and queue it up to the right spot and then find someone who can count and then sit and count it down while checking your bets.

    The problem with getting rated (using a players card) for comps at your local store is that the comps will quickly end when you start winning and/or when you become a regular. The computer systems today will comp you based on your "worth" to the Casino and as a way to spur you to come back to the store. If you're a winner or a regular, they don't want/need to comp you.

    You'll get a short burst of comp activity after getting rated and then, if you're a winner and/or a regular, you'll see that drop off quickly. After a while, you're not getting comps that are worth anything AND THEY KNOW WHO YOU ARE and exactly what you've been doing. I don't see much value in that.

    So, either decline the card or come up with another idea for looking like a loser, spreading the wins around, etc...

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