Beginner Question - KO vs. HiLo

**johnvic** · 12-13-2013, 06:43 PM

I played with counting a few years ago and used HiLo. I also tried KO. So now I'm starting again. I don't have any illusions of being a professional blackjack player, just a recreational player. Currently I am working on getting my basic strategy down with the CV iPhone App. I love practicing standing on the subway after a long day at work while listening to a podcast!

The general advice seems to be to use KO ( or REKO ) for a beginner. I assume because there is no deck estimation. What I didn't like about the KO count was the range in the running count. I tried starting at 0 instead of at a negative number but I still preferred the count staying near 0 like it does in HiLo. On the other hand, with HiLo I need to make sure that I have good deck estimation skills.

So my question for the experienced counters is what is harder to learn, deck estimation or counting a larger range? I'm assuming I'm not the only one to ever have this question.

Thanks!

**seriousplayer** · 12-13-2013, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by johnvic

So my question for the experienced counters is what is harder to learn, deck estimation or counting a larger range? I'm assuming I'm not the only one to ever have this question.

Thanks!

For me counting is harder to learn because I make mistakes sometime. I try counting without making one mistake at all within 2000 hands of play and it always seem like I make tat least one mistake counting. Deck estimation is not that hard once you got it you have it. However, I am not a fan of the Hi-lo count. It is not because it involves TC conversion but the tag values. I don't like the fact that Hi-lo don't count the 7s making its play efficiency .51. What I don't like is that you need to drop out when the TC= -1 using the Hi-lo count.

**stopgambling** · 12-13-2013, 07:33 PM

that's what i like about hi lo ,just wong out. and not much neg. count.

**seriousplayer** · 12-13-2013, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by stopgambling

that's what i like about hi lo ,just wong out. and not much neg. count.

What happens if the casino only have three tables? You will keep dropping out at TC= -1. If you do that often the casino will figure you out.

**stopgambling** · 12-13-2013, 07:46 PM

Just a generalized comment.No point in playing too many neg. EV hands if nothing good comes out of it.i will wong in and play a few good hands .If that doesn't work I wouldn't care too much if the count is a bit more neg. ,even if i lose the count they have minimal impact on your win rate(just minimum bet).It is spread and other condition that's important.

**seriousplayer** · 12-13-2013, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by stopgambling

Just a generalized comment.No point in playing too many neg. EV hands if nothing good comes out of it.i will wong in and play a few good hands .If that doesn't work I wouldn't care too much if the count is a bit more neg. ,even if i lose the count they have minimal impact on your win rate(just minimum bet).It is spread and other condition that's important.

Backcounting is not that effective if you only have three tables. You will be waiting a long time for a positive count to occur which is not good that is why I don't play Hi-lo. I don't know why the AP community designate the Hi-lo count as the industry standard?

Practically, I think a good True Count KO player would outperform the TC Hi-lo player more than simulation results indicate. In hand held games the Hi-lo player would simply be unable to use more strategy change due to its low PE of .51.

**stopgambling** · 12-13-2013, 08:10 PM

It's all fine , they all get the money . The difference is small. Play a little more ,spread more aggressively, find better pen,play less crowded condition. It's not about playing more hands ,it's about the quality of the hands played.if one play only quality hands ,sometimes the N0 is only around 14000 hands .

**biggg** · 12-14-2013, 08:19 AM

Grosjean had a good article about how most people suck at deck estimation and would be better off with KO. I think unless you play a lot you might be better off with that.

**muffdiver** · 12-14-2013, 08:24 AM

I'll give 10-1 that kewl doesn't post in this thread!

**Gramazeka** · 12-14-2013, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by seriousplayer

Backcounting is not that effective if you only have three tables. You will be waiting a long time for a positive count to occur which is not good that is why I don't play Hi-lo. I don't know why the AP community designate the Hi-lo count as the industry standard?

Practically, I think a good True Count KO player would outperform the TC Hi-lo player more than simulation results indicate. In hand held games the Hi-lo player would simply be unable to use more strategy change due to its low PE of .51.

P.S.

You strongly are mistaken.

**seriousplayer** · 12-14-2013, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by Gramazeka

P.S.

You strongly are mistaken.

Gramazeka, why I am I wrong in my opinion? Clarify this for me.

**Gramazeka** · 12-15-2013, 08:10 AM

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=3318

**seriousplayer** · 12-15-2013, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by Gramazeka

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=3318

The thread talks about KO-Preferred vs Hi-lo. KO-Preferred is used in running count mode. My thread was talking KO used in True Count mode (used with depth based or division True counting) compare to Hi-lo use in True Count mode. As it is listed above as: "Practically, I think a good True Count KO player would outperform the TC Hi-lo player more than simulation results indicate."

What does the thread has to do with the mistake that you said I made? AP believes that an unbalanced count is not comparable to a balanced count. It is only true to a certain extent because there are unbalanced count systems use in running count mode that do outperform balanced count systems. Like for example, UBZII compare to Hi-lo. Since UBZII is a level two system it will outperform Hi-lo even used with running count.

Answer to Blackjackinfo thread: "Sure you can true count adjust an unbalanced system, but you end up having to do the same deck estimation and division anyway so why not use a balanced system and get all the other benefits of it?"

Because some balanced counts used in True Count mode does not have a greater performance than some unbalanced counts used in True Count mode. For example, Hi-lo have BC= .97, PE = .51 and IC = .76 but TKO has BC= .98, PE = .55 and IC= .78 both compared using True Count to True Count. From the comparison if used with true count adjustment which system will be stronger in strength? Which one will you used? This is another reason why I True count unbalanced count and don't switch to balanced count like Hi-lo. If I do consider switching I will change to a level 2 count system.

Unless there is anyway that Hi-lo could outperform TKO without side counting than I will consider switching to Hi-lo.