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Thread: here is when you have advantage in 6:5 single deck game??

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    here is when you have advantage in 6:5 single deck game??

    i have been advised that the player has an advantage in a 6:5 single deck game when the true count is higher than the number of aces remaining in the deck. in this case since getting a blackjack does not pay much and is not an issue, the important thing is to bet big when the dealer is likely to bust.
    e.g.: the true count is +4 with 0 aces remaining, there is no chance of blackjack anyway so the 6:5 payout on bj is not an issue. the dealer is more likely to bust here, in the theory, so we can bet big. one could use a 2 level or 1 level count. for uston's advanced +/- in theory this should also work, i think. this extreme example can be extended to other true counts and number of remaining aces when true counts are higher than number of aces remaining.
    please advise.

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    Highly advise a stronger count for single and double deck games...
    Waiting for an advantage at a 6:5 game will be wasteful. The sudden LARGE bet will be obvious.

    ~Pac

    Edit: by stronger count i mean one with a higher PE.
    Last edited by Pacman; 11-17-2013 at 10:20 PM.

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    I don't know that side-counting aces is actually that strong for 6:5, because aces aren't worth much. Zen is usually a better count. You really need deep pen and a strong spread on this game, though. And you need a dumb crew.
    The Cash Cow.

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    pacman and moo make sense for this 6:5 game. however, the aces here are low cards for PE and help the dealer, so you want to know when they are in short supply in the deck. and yes deep penetration and strong spread are needed to overcome the longer, maybe twice as long, waiting period for positive advantageous situations. i have found the crew to not be as vigilant on the 6:5 single deck as on 3:2 single deck, and they allow strong betting spreads as high as 8 or 10 to 1, with deep penetration. this is at some indian casinos. i suppose a good simulation would be helpful here to clarify the factors.

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    Obviously, pen and spreads are everything. If you can spread min to max, then even 50% pen is a fantastic game. If they're dealing down to about 10 cards or so, then you can do pretty well with only 10-1.

    Also, you'll want to pick up some indexes. This isn't like shoe game: playing single deck with a massive spread gives much better returns for your index plays than a shoe game will.
    The Cash Cow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhb View Post
    i have been advised that the player has an advantage in a 6:5 single deck game when the true count is higher than the number of aces remaining in the deck. in this case since getting a blackjack does not pay much and is not an issue, the important thing is to bet big when the dealer is likely to bust.
    Sounds like one of the worst strategies ever devised!

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    Casinos usually have little to worry about from card counters on 6/5 Single Deck games. If the game is dealt deeply, and the casino will let you play it like a shoe game (i.e., huge spread or lots of sitting out of hands) you can beat it pretty easily. I know guys who used to crush the old even-money dealt to the bottom single deck "Experto 21" that used to be dealt at Grand Casinos in Biloxi and at Vegas World back in the day. The key is penetration and what the casino lets you get away with.

    Unfortunately, pen usually sucks and the casino sweats anything more than a very modest bet spread. They still protect it like it's an old school 3/2 single deck game sweat it as such.

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    i have played the 6/5 single deck a few times with short sessions of less than one hour each and lost a few big bets, which is inconclusive. i can't prove it now but my feeling is that this game can be beaten with large 10 to 1 bet spreads and the deep penetration of 80% or so and a side count of aces to play when deck is short of aces as described above. a simulation is crucial for me to fully commit to this game however.

    you need to find deep penetration, large spread, and no heat, which may be rare to find, but it does exist in selected venues. this 6/5 single deck is not my first choice; i only play it when 2 deck games are unaccessible.

    i remember the single deck even money dealt to bottom of deck at vegas world and i did very well at it years ago. this 6/5 single deck may be similar in advantage to the vegas world game of yesteryear. i think it is worth looking into and need not be totally avoided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhb View Post
    i have played the 6/5 single deck a few times with short sessions of less than one hour each and lost a few big bets, which is inconclusive. i can't prove it now but my feeling is that this game can be beaten with large 10 to 1 bet spreads and the deep penetration of 80% or so and a side count of aces to play when deck is short of aces as described above. a simulation is crucial for me to fully commit to this game however.

    you need to find deep penetration, large spread, and no heat, which may be rare to find, but it does exist in selected venues. this 6/5 single deck is not my first choice; i only play it when 2 deck games are unaccessible.

    i remember the single deck even money dealt to bottom of deck at vegas world and i did very well at it years ago. this 6/5 single deck may be similar in advantage to the vegas world game of yesteryear. i think it is worth looking into and need not be totally avoided.
    Basically, yes. It's a tool that can be in your repertoire, but don't assume you're going to pay the rent with it. I've bombed away (20-1) at some games with great pen because I knew the whole crew was stupid. On the other hand, lots of places in Vegas will tag you on this game, so be careful.

    Also, make sure you know your advantage by true count. Usually you want to be min-betting until +3 or +4 with a level 1 count. So a bet ramp that starts at +1 (like a regular pitch game) isn't good.
    The Cash Cow.

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    This makes no sense to me. 6/5 is a terrible game...the only thing worse would be having no chance at all of getting a Blackjack, and you're going to bet more then? You're still only going to win about 43% of hands at high counts. Take away the BJ possibility and I would think you must be at a disadvantage, no matter how high the count.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 21gunsalute View Post
    This makes no sense to me. 6/5 is a terrible game...the only thing worse would be having no chance at all of getting a Blackjack, and you're going to bet more then? You're still only going to win about 43% of hands at high counts. Take away the BJ possibility and I would think you must be at a disadvantage, no matter how high the count.
    that is a good point and way to look at this. for example if there are no aces in the remaining deck and the count is high won't the dealer bust more often and you would win more than the usual 43% of the hands; and of course you still have splitting and double downs.

    now this is not a proof that the game can be beaten. but IF the game can be beaten at all then this outline would be the way to do it. it is crucial that you win significantly more than the usual percent of hands when playing with this approach -- betting high with high running count higher than number of aces remaining.

    one anecdote: how often do you double down on 11 and get an ace, how often does dealer have 16 and hit with ace to make a hand and beat your stiff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhb View Post
    for example if there are no aces in the remaining deck and the count is high won't the dealer bust more often and you would win more than the usual 43% of the hands; and of course you still have splitting and double downs.
    The dealer busts stiffs more often but gets stiffs less often. It is pretty much a wash.

    Quote Originally Posted by mhb View Post
    and of course you still have splitting and double downs.
    You will have increased split and double opportunities and generally fair better on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by mhb View Post
    but IF the game can be beaten at all then this outline would be the way to do it. it is crucial that you win significantly more than the usual percent of hands when playing with this approach -- betting high with high running count higher than number of aces remaining.
    Wrong. There are counts specifically designed for SD 6:5. Your success is very dependent on your table position and number of players which will usually determine the number of rounds played. A multilevel count that counts the 9 and ace as half the T and the 5 as 50% more than the T. Basically an unbalanced version of Wong Halves Doubled which drops the ace to half the T in terms of count tags causing an imbalance in the count of 1/rank. For SD the IRC is -4. With the addition of a surprising small 53 indices you have an advantage at RC 0. Depending on splitting rules the 6:5 SD game adds about .45% or .48% to the advantage/RC increment. As you can see the number of aces has little to do with your advantage once the BJ bonus is reduced. If you remove 4 aces and 3 fives the RC is +1 and a composition dependent analyzer has your advantage at .4044%. Get on a CDA and play with your rules set and the number of aces versus a level 1 RC is a VERY poor indicator of the shifting advantage.
    Last edited by Three; 11-21-2013 at 04:51 AM.

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    You will get a doubled 11 about 3.8% of the time. You draw an ace to it about 8% of the time. The product is .22% of the time.
    Estimate of dealer drawing to a hard 16 around 10% (Of course you will have already busted or have made a hand a big chunk of this so it should be reduced to about 5% in terms of causing you to lose). The dealer will draw an ace about 7.5% of the time. The product is .38%.

    Add the two together and you get .6% of the time. That makes the answer about 1 time in every 167 hands. That is not very often.

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