you counters be nice and join the conversation

[hardin county boy]

What you espouse has been posted on gambling forums literally tens of thousands of times, and proposed tens of millions of times over centuries. How many times can we answer the exact same nonsense with detailed answers? Particularly when your first post suggests that we are all closed-minded jerks too stubborn or foolish to look at alternatives to reality. At some point, you just give up and respond with a one or two word accurate assessment. Seriously, how many times are we to explain that 1 is not equal to 2 and perpetual motion machines do not exist?

i am sincere in saying, "thanks for that explanation." guess i have been slow to realize you have heard it tens of thousands of times and that explains the impatience. still not entirely convinced with all the points made and characterizations but i am making my way through the forum and I AM learning. re-looked at my original post and wish i had not given you reason to think i was claiming "all counters closed-minded jerks" but, in fairness, as other newbies observe, what i had read in the forum before posting was often impolite and often needlessly abrupt, arrogant and egotistical-----true in the archives and true today----i love the game of twenty one and want to develop advantaged play---maybe the enterprise is so darn self-absorbed that it brings out the worst in me and quite a few others---my thanks to those who have been exceptions-you are probably lifetime winners at AND away from the tables.

[Hsiaodi]

My brain hurts.
Norm is this what happens when you're #1?

[Three]

When your #1 sometimes it makes you feel like #2

[Mr BJ75]

i am sincere in saying, "thanks for that explanation." guess i have been slow to realize you have heard it tens of thousands of times and that explains the impatience. still not entirely convinced with all the points made and characterizations but i am making my way through the forum and I AM learning. re-looked at my original post and wish i had not given you reason to think i was claiming "all counters closed-minded jerks" but, in fairness, as other newbies observe, what i had read in the forum before posting was often impolite and often needlessly abrupt, arrogant and egotistical-----true in the archives and true today----i love the game of twenty one and want to develop advantaged play---maybe the enterprise is so darn self-absorbed that it brings out the worst in me and quite a few others---my thanks to those who have been exceptions-you are probably lifetime winners at AND away from the tables.

Hardin, I understand a lot of what you've said here, for I am new. I have one post, "Need Help w/ Investors." Although I never put counting or counters down and did not in any way claim my system to be better, I was laughed at, told to quit, and much more. There is a lot to be said for the variables you added, bet size, length of play and limitations. Often I was given examples that make my strategy look like Swiss cheese from the surface. But when adding a few variable like you mention, it looks a lot different. The 90% winner theory, that 10% of the time you lose all or most.

If nothing else, today proves something I just told a coworker the other day, "math wins all conversations." That is definitely the case here. If you don't come to the forum with the math to show an advantage, it doesn't matter what you've done at the tables. I never go into a mtg with my boss without all my numbers, %'s and totals, thus I don't know why I thought it would be different here.

[Norm]

Yes, reality works better in the real world. Isn't irony ironic?

[hardin county boy]

Hardin, I understand a lot of what you've said here, for I am new. I have one post, "Need Help w/ Investors." Although I never put counting or counters down and did not in any way claim my system to be better, I was laughed at, told to quit, and much more. There is a lot to be said for the variables you added, bet size, length of play and limitations. Often I was given examples that make my strategy look like Swiss cheese from the surface. But when adding a few variable like you mention, it looks a lot different. The 90% winner theory, that 10% of the time you lose all or most.

If nothing else, today proves something I just told a coworker the other day, "math wins all conversations." That is definitely the case here. If you don't come to the forum with the math to show an advantage, it doesn't matter what you've done at the tables. I never go into a mtg with my boss without all my numbers, %'s and totals, thus I don't know why I thought it would be different here.

thanks mrbj75--i am trying to learn something from these sharp math guys and i hope you and i are as wrong as they figure. otherwise, some AP who spends 6 months building a good win, only to lose it in 2 hours is as wrong as i figure he is and that just would not do. i did not share my table experience like you did as i anticipated the hooting---i learned basic strategy, bet up a little winning and down a little losing and tried to quit winners. i won the very first 17 trips i played, 1-120 units, some just dumb luck and some reckless gambling that came out ok but most really were as straightforward likely as you and i think.

the next 80 trips i played out much of the stuff these guys have been criticizing and turned having the game by the sack into being a lifetime LOSER, for now. most of these characters will wag their head and say they told me so---voodoo etc, as if they never strayed from doing what they knew was best in their game or have not been on the losing end of variance.

truth is, i started trying to get the game to do more than it does, got greedy, got compulsive and then got into bigger bets and chasing loses. i can honestly say i blew a good deal and when the wags say that is a familiar pattern, i REALLY agree BUT it was a violation of discipline, not the approach that broke down and that will screw anyone and is a common theme on why casinos thrive. i won't kid you, to this day, i remain comfortable that i am right in saying there is a lifetime winning way to the type play you and i describe---in the same way advantage players with monster lifetime losses do not negate the value of counting, my own mismanagement does not negate the perpetual motion machine that is my game.

i took a long break, took stock and relaunched 5 trips ago, all winners so far but "only" 20 unit average wins. i agree with the math guys that such streaks are not especially unusual but i will never embrace the idea of being willing to toss hard earned wins, too-easily, in the toilet "because the count is good"----i DID that already and it does not matter it was with disadvantaged play---the loss is the same as the hard working counter who has lost the same. i am probably a different guy who will not screw up the discipline this time around but my beloved voodoo stays--just won too consistently to let it go.

i am toying with a "hybrid" of making each trip a "session" which math guys correctly observe does not really exist----they got it figured i am an idiot for believing it is smart to let a trip be a confined session with a limit to loss but no limit to winning. i think adding advantage play and requiring that i be both "up" for the trip AND have a good count to spread bet size has prospects----if i am wrong, i am honored to provide endless hours of amusement for these long-suffering math-smarts, i gather from norm they have endured A LOT of what i am selling.

my best to all the guys who have replied.....

[Lancelot]

Hardin, I understand a lot of what you've said here, for I am new. I have one post, "Need Help w/ Investors." Although I never put counting or counters down and did not in any way claim my system to be better, I was laughed at, told to quit, and much more. There is a lot to be said for the variables you added, bet size, length of play and limitations. Often I was given examples that make my strategy look like Swiss cheese from the surface. But when adding a few variable like you mention, it looks a lot different. The 90% winner theory, that 10% of the time you lose all or most.

If nothing else, today proves something I just told a coworker the other day, "math wins all conversations." That is definitely the case here. If you don't come to the forum with the math to show an advantage, it doesn't matter what you've done at the tables. I never go into a mtg with my boss without all my numbers, %'s and totals, thus I don't know why I thought it would be different here.

thanks mrbj75--i am trying to learn something from these sharp math guys and i hope you and i are as wrong as they figure. otherwise, some AP who spends 6 months building a good win, only to lose it in 2 hours is as wrong as i figure he is and that just would not do. i did not share my table experience like you did as i anticipated the hooting---i learned basic strategy, bet up a little winning and down a little losing and tried to quit winners. i won the very first 17 trips i played, 1-120 units, some just dumb luck and some reckless gambling that came out ok but most really were as straightforward likely as you and i think.

the next 80 trips i played out much of the stuff these guys have been criticizing and turned having the game by the sack into being a lifetime LOSER, for now. most of these characters will wag their head and say they told me so---voodoo etc, as if they never strayed from doing what they knew was best in their game or have not been on the losing end of variance.

truth is, i started trying to get the game to do more than it does, got greedy, got compulsive and then got into bigger bets and chasing loses. i can honestly say i blew a good deal and when the wags say that is a familiar pattern, i REALLY agree BUT it was a violation of discipline, not the approach that broke down and that will screw anyone and is a common theme on why casinos thrive. i won't kid you, to this day, i remain comfortable that i am right in saying there is a lifetime winning way to the type play you and i describe---in the same way advantage players with monster lifetime losses do not negate the value of counting, my own mismanagement does not negate the perpetual motion machine that is my game.

i took a long break, took stock and relaunched 5 trips ago, all winners so far but "only" 20 unit average wins. i agree with the math guys that such streaks are not especially unusual but i will never embrace the idea of being willing to toss hard earned wins, too-easily, in the toilet "because the count is good"----i DID that already and it does not matter it was with disadvantaged play---the loss is the same as the hard working counter who has lost the same. i am probably a different guy who will not screw up the discipline this time around but my beloved voodoo stays--just won too consistently to let it go.

i am toying with a "hybrid" of making each trip a "session" which math guys correctly observe does not really exist----they got it figured i am an idiot for believing it is smart to let a trip be a confined session with a limit to loss but no limit to winning. i think adding advantage play and requiring that i be both "up" for the trip AND have a good count to spread bet size has prospects----if i am wrong, i am honored to provide endless hours of amusement for these long-suffering math-smarts, i gather from norm they have endured A LOT of what i am selling.

my best to all the guys who have replied.....

It's a sign of insanity if you keep talking to yourself. Your posts are so similar, you'd think you're hearing echoes. I would ask norm to check if these two, zeezebar, combats, caucasion, and another belligerent new guy are the same troll.

[22 Dreams]

How to Fly

1. Jump up in the air.
2. NEVER allow gravity to pull you all the way back down by using discipline.
3. If you fall part way down, leave the session with your won height.
4. Rinse and repeat, gaining more height each cycle.

The same approach can be used for the creation of perpetual motion machines.

Thanks, Norm. Love it. That made this thread worth scanning through.

[hardin county boy]

It's a sign of insanity if you keep talking to yourself. Your posts are so similar, you'd think you're hearing echoes. I would ask norm to check if these two, zeezebar, combats, caucasion, and another belligerent new guy are the same troll.

i hear you man, if i had only been here a whole month like you, i know i would do better. oh, wait--that echo i am hearing is the stuff YOU are saying saying...

[bjarg]

Please stop, every time I accidentally read something you've written I grow stupider.

Hahaha this is the funniest post Ive ever read.

[kripton]

How to Fly

1. Jump up in the air.
2. NEVER allow gravity to pull you all the way back down by using discipline.
3. If you fall part way down, leave the session with your won height.
4. Rinse and repeat, gaining more height each cycle.

The same approach can be used for the creation of perpetual motion machines.

If you are not willing to become astronaut then it's much better to stay on the ground.

[21gunsalute]

you counters be nice and join the conversation.

Why?