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Thread: Buying "surrender hands" from other players

  1. #14


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    I have rarely seen anyone turn it down and rarely see anyone ask for a cut. What incentive do you need to make others happy when it costs you nothing in money or effort. For most people it is no incentive. For self-centered jerks the answer may be different. Even the jerks are happier to give money to another player than the casino. The see the casino as the enemy and other players as allies.
    Maybe not the first time, but if I were on the selling end and witnessed another player reaping the benefits of a hand we were equally invested in, I'd make damn sure it didn't happen more than once!

  2. #15


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    Quote Originally Posted by 21gunsalute View Post
    I don't see how it would be any different than buying a double or buying a split from another player. You'd both be half invested in the hand. He's giving up the surrender option to play out the hand, so you're both equally invested in the hand and should split the profits.
    Your logic is flawed. Rethink the scenario.

  3. #16


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    If you are counting , you should buy any surrender that your count indicates not surrendering. If you don't count, you should buy any surrender that BS indicates not to do so. If someone decides to surrender his 12Vs.8 ,you should buy it even if he is betting more than your max bet because your edge is so much bigger than your edge when you bet your max. This strategy is a huge profit maker and it can dwarf your EV from the rest of the game. Beware of shot takers among your customers. Also, try not to get unwanted attention from the pit because you rob the house from the EV that your customer provides on this hand.

  4. #17


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    Lets make this simple
    Surrender is profitable as a play whenever your win rate is less than 25%.
    You buy 100-$10.00 hands for 500.00. You own the $10.00 bet on the table.
    You win 30% of the hands.
    You win $300.00 plus you retain the $300.00 that you own on the table.
    your gross is $600.00 - your cost is $500.00 - your net is $100.00.
    Plus, a lot of people don't surrender properly.
    Good deal.

  5. #18
    Senior Member bebe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shark View Post
    If you are counting , you should buy any surrender that your count indicates not surrendering. If you don't count, you should buy any surrender that BS indicates not to do so.If someone decides to surrender his 12Vs.8 ,you should buy it even if he is betting more than your max bet because your edge is so much bigger than your edge when you bet your max. This strategy is a huge profit maker and it can dwarf your EV from the rest of the game. Beware of shot takers among your customers. Also, try not to get unwanted attention from the pit because you rob the house from the EV that your customer provides on this hand.
    I agree ,it sounded as if others were buying any surrender...bad idea

  6. #19


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    Quote Originally Posted by bebe View Post
    I agree ,it sounded as if others were buying any surrender...bad idea
    Fascinating thread - 2 scenarios.

    I believe in shearing vs skinning. I bypass a tremendously profitable opportunity in a local hi limit room with high tolerance. The simple reason is that I don't want the additional attention, or to jeopardize my current standing. That being said, I would jump all over the existing opportunity if played at an out of town location. The individual in question surrenders badly, and even when he or she does not, would still buy the surrender in order to retain the "karma".

    The simple fact is that most ploppies and some supposed AP's do not surrender properly. There was a local situation a few years ago in a low limit room, whereby Mr. Surrender surrendered almost everything in site-including 12's, 13's etc etc against 7,8,9,10. Hell, he even surrendered 7's, 8,s and 9,s v 10 - drove everyone nuts-except the house low end ap who happened to recognize the opportunity. The 2 sat side by side and the transfer of funds between the 2 was virtually automatic with no squeak from the house. The buyer did very well with this arrangement (in relation to the stakes)

  7. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    The proper surrender is to surrender if you will win 25% of the time or less. If you have invested in 4 hands and get 2 bets back (4 half bets) if you surrender and if you play you bet 4 bets and win one netting a 2 bet return. For the scavenger play if you win 1 "bet " (your investment) you get 4 bets back. It takes 1 win out of every 5 bets (20%) to break even. You can safely buy every surrender made at the table and rarely if ever make a bad deal. Any stupid surrender you have an edge that is unbelievable.

    An EV of -.6 is the break even point instead of -.5 for surrender. The best surrender (9,7vT) has an EV of -0.537 so without knowledge of the count you should buy every surrender. You will have a nice edge.
    This is not correct. You should never give up -.5 in exchange for a hand worth -.537. The criteria for what to buy is the same as the criteria for whether the surrender was correct to begin with. The original player had a choice of several plays. If surrender was not the most valuable of his options, then by default that means if you pay what he would get by surrendering, the correct play must be worth more. It's that simple.

    If you play with a friend you should always buy each others surrenders.


    It should be obvious that this is ludicrous. If that's the case, should you simply never surrender if you are playing 2 spots because it's advantageous for one spot to buy out the other spot's surrender hands? Clearly not.

  8. #21
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    I really appreciate all these informative comments and opinions. This really exceeded my feedback expectation.
    I honestly thought, I make get lucky and get 2-3 responses. But to get all these teriffic well imformed and opininated responses is awesome!

    Now I see that, this can be very beneficial to buy "surrender hands" when used under proper discretion.
    However there can be some serious drawbacks.

    -The "surrending player" could deliberately stiff you or unintentionally mispay due to confusion.
    -This could jeopardize your relationship with the casinio, and will either get you expelled or constantly create unwanted attention everytime you arrive/play at their gaming tables.

    So the bottom line is:

    A) Preferably use a friend or try to establish a trusted rapport with a player (ploppy) beforehand, by being both on the same page and inconspicuously exchange money.

    B) Create some sort of incentive, for the player wanting to do deal with the unecessary aggrevation of dealing with you (myself). When they could so easily "surrender" to the casino and have it be an "open and shut case", no confusion or complications.

    Needless to say, it does appear, that "buying surrender hands" overall can create alot of unecessary hassle and stress.
    But if an effective gameplan can be constructed, then this could be productive and beneficial.

  9. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Lets make this simple
    Surrender is profitable as a play whenever your win rate is less than 25%.
    You buy 100-$10.00 hands for 500.00. You own the $10.00 bet on the table.
    You win 30% of the hands.
    You win $300.00 plus you retain the $300.00 that you own on the table.
    your gross is $600.00 - your cost is $500.00 - your net is $100.00.
    Plus, a lot of people don't surrender properly.
    Good deal.
    Everyone is forgetting pushes. if you are surrendering most likely the best other option is to hit. You make a hand and the dealer makes a hand there is a 1 in 5 chance that you make the same total. You get $10 back for every push. That is a profit equal to your investment.
    Last edited by Three; 08-13-2013 at 04:34 PM.

  10. #23


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    Everyone is forgetting pushes. if you are surrendering most likely the best other option is to hit. You make a hand and the dealer makes a hand there is a 1 in 4 chance that you make the same total. You get $10 back for every push. That is a profit equal to your investment.
    Good point - definite factor

  11. #24
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    You are right Nyne. Sorry about the confusion. I am not sure what I was thinking.

  12. #25


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    Everyone is forgetting pushes. if you are surrendering most likely the best other option is to hit. You make a hand and the dealer makes a hand there is a 1 in 5 chance that you make the same total. You get $10 back for every push. That is a profit equal to your investment.
    Your expectation tables take in account pushes. If you buy a hand with EV higher than 0.5 for 0.5 , you make a profit.

  13. #26


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    [QUOTE=Tthree;106820]The proper surrender is to surrender if you will win 25% of the time or less. If you have invested in 4 hands and get 2 bets back (4 half bets) if you surrender and if you play you bet 4 bets and win one netting a 2 bet return. For the scavenger play if you win 1 "bet " (your investment) you get 4 bets back. It takes 1 win out of every 5 bets (20%) to break even.

    Tthree,
    I do not agree with this.
    If you win 1 bet, you get back your bet, plus win 3.
    So you need to win 1 out of every 4 bets (25%) to break even.
    You are stepping into the ploppies shoes, so you need to win same % as ploppy to break even (25%).

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