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Thread: Buying "surrender hands" from other players

  1. #1
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    Buying "surrender hands" from other players

    Hello Everyone. I just joined this forum.

    There is a casino that offers "Surrender". Once the dealer has peeked under their 10 or Ace, the player then has the opportunity to surrender their hand if they choose.
    Normally its okay to surrender a hard 16 vs 9, 10 or ACE, but thats not the case regarding these players at this casino.

    The game is played on a 6 deck shoe, stands on soft 17, 3/2 blackjack odds, dealer peeks.

    Anyhow my question is, would it be advantageous and beneficial for me to BUY these hands that the players are surrending on???
    But blindly, may I add, meaning I'm not really tracking the cards or following the count, because many times I jump from table to table, just to more monitor and observe people make some of the worlds worse decsions imaginable. And if I do purchase their hand, there will be a 95% chance, that I will HIT for another card, since I will be having a HARD 12-16 vs Dealer 7-A

    So I have reguarly seen multiple different players on numerous situations forfeit (surrender) half their bet, when they have a hard 14, 13, and at times 12 vs dealers 10, 9 ,8 and sometimes a 7 !!! Isnt this insane or what???

    I sware this has got to be the craziest thing ever to do!!! Surrending on a Hard 12 vs an 8 is just flat unbearble to watch, I literally cringe and squirm, when this happens. It's actually become quite vogue and tolerable for the players to do start doing this now. Its almost like the "monkey see, monkey do" policy.

    Not to mention nearly everyone stands on hard 14's and hard 15's vs 7 thru Ace.
    Everyone is petrified to swipe for another card once they've reached 14 vs ANYTHING else showing.
    I'm no math statistician, but with that style of play, the house edge has got to be nearly 10% if not higher, if you freeze and/or surrender, on all 12-16 hard counts.

    Who in their right mind would just routinely and continuously abuse the surrender policy??
    ARENT I JUST BETTER OFF BUYING THEIR HAND OFF THE PLAYER AND PLAYING THEIR HAND OUT? And getting an incredible 3 to 1 payoff on my money, if my bet wins. I think I would make money in the long run, doing this.

    However I'm not at the table playing, so when the next "surrender flag" is waved, I almost would have to literally tap them on their shoulder, give them half the amount of their bet and tell them, I now own your bet and now hit for me. Of course it would be better off, having a quick pep talk with the abusive surrender players before the cards are dealt. So I wont make a scene or any type of negotations been made at the table when it involves a players bet, being booked by the casino. I'm pretty sure, the casino will frown and not tolerate this action.
    I'm open for any comments, advice or suggestions. Thank you.
    Last edited by Scavenger Squirrel; 08-13-2013 at 12:14 PM.

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    Well lets look at it this way.
    Your paying half price, for a negative expectation hand. But if you win, you'll make 3x what you bet.
    Sounds like a win to me. But maybe someone else can chime in.
    The key factor here being that your buying a LOSING hand. No matter if its a crazy surrender, you cant expect to win more 12v8 than you'll lose. But at a 3 to 1 payout, it may be worth it.

    ~Pac.

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    Okay, if I understand this correctly, you're buying the hand for half price, right? So you're only paying half price for the hand but you're buying a crappy hand! What could be crazier than that?

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    I think if you know the count of the shoe this could be profitable. If you know the count you probably will not be buying as many hands as you think.
    Last edited by bebe; 08-13-2013 at 04:51 AM.

  5. #5
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    Don't worry much about the count. You can bet that the other players aren't counting. As Homer Simpson said, "We should never overthink, because when we overthink...




    ...what was the question again?"

    Now, if it ends up that you're regularly wonging in, just memorize the surrenders that are correct for your threshold count, and buy all the others.

    Buying off these kamikaze surrenders is massively profitable. The key is to do it in a way that doesn't attract unwelcome attention. You'll need to have advance conversations with your target players, and get them to understand that you may be interested in buying hands. You should expect to have to do them small favors from time to time. You need it all to proceed quietly and smoothly. Maybe refrain from buying hands when the boss is watching. And beware of shot takers. That's another reason to get to know your players before doing business. It's far from unknown for a player to sell a hand, then grab the payoff if it wins. Or want to give you only what you paid for the hand. The pit won't back you up in these situations.

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    The proper surrender is to surrender if you will win 25% of the time or less. If you have invested in 4 hands and get 2 bets back (4 half bets) if you surrender and if you play you bet 4 bets and win one netting a 2 bet return. For the scavenger play if you win 1 "bet " (your investment) you get 4 bets back. It takes 1 win out of every 5 bets (20%) to break even. You can safely buy every surrender made at the table and rarely if ever make a bad deal. Any stupid surrender you have an edge that is unbelievable.

    An EV of -.6 is the break even point instead of -.5 for surrender. The best surrender (9,7vT) has an EV of -0.537 so without knowledge of the count you should buy every surrender. You will have a nice edge.
    Last edited by Three; 08-13-2013 at 05:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    The proper surrender is to surrender if you will win 25% of the time or less. If you have invested in 4 hands and get 2 bets back (4 half bets) if you surrender and if you play you bet 4 bets and win one netting a 2 bet return. For the scavenger play if you win 1 "bet " (your investment) you get 4 bets back. It takes 1 win out of every 5 bets (20%) to break even. You can safely buy every surrender made at the table and rarely if ever make a bad deal. Any stupid surrender you have an edge that is unbelievable.

    An EV of -.6 is the break even point instead of -.5 for surrender. The best surrender (9,7vT) has an EV of -0.537 so without knowledge of the count you should buy every surrender. You will have a nice edge.
    I don't think it's that simple. I also seriously doubt that if each party is half invested in the hand that the person "buying" the hand is going to be able to get away with keeping all the profits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 21gunsalute View Post
    I don't think it's that simple. I also seriously doubt that if each party is half invested in the hand that the person "buying" the hand is going to be able to get away with keeping all the profits.
    Why not? He already decided to sell it to the casino for half his bet. Why would he gouge you unless he feels more allegiance to the casino than other players. People generally see it as the players vs the casino. I have never seen anyone ask for a cut. They are curious what would have happened if they didn't surrender. I have seen people ask if you will take a card or not. If you are going to stand they sell since you won't mess up the sacred flow of the cards. If you will hit they sell to the casino.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    Why not? He already decided to sell it to the casino for half his bet. Why would he gouge you unless he feels more allegiance to the casino than other players. People generally see it as the players vs the casino. I have never seen anyone ask for a cut. They are curious what would have happened if they didn't surrender. I have seen people ask if you will take a card or not. If you are going to stand they sell since you won't mess up the sacred flow of the cards. If you will hit they sell to the casino.
    I don't see how it would be any different than buying a double or buying a split from another player. You'd both be half invested in the hand. He's giving up the surrender option to play out the hand, so you're both equally invested in the hand and should split the profits.

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    My god man you don't offer to share the hand with the guy. You say, if you are selling it for half your bet anyway I will buy it for that price. If he goes for it there is no room for any discussion of splitting the win.

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    If you play with a friend you should always buy each others surrenders.

  12. #12
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    What incentive would you give to the other player? Why would he go through the rigamarole of selling to another player, when all he has to do is signal surrender, the dealer takes half the bet and the deal is done.

  13. #13
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    I have rarely seen anyone turn it down and rarely see anyone ask for a cut. What incentive do you need to make others happy when it costs you nothing in money or effort. For most people it is no incentive. For self-centered jerks the answer may be different. Even the jerks are happier to give money to another player than the casino. The see the casino as the enemy and other players as allies.

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