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Thread: Red zen

  1. #14


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    Quote Originally Posted by harpo View Post
    Mr. White I have a great memory , but I am far from a math guy, so to me they look very close. What do you see that I don't please. By the way Reservoir Dogs if so what a great movie.
    Counting just the red 2's and red 7's is actually more difficult than counting all the 2's and all the 7's. When you see a 2 or a 7 with your method, you'd have to determine whether or not it's a red or black, and then decide whether to count it, if it's red, or not count it if it's black. Now, if it's an Indian casino and they discover you're favoring the reds you might be okay, but if Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and Barrack Obama find out you're discriminating against blacks, you've had it! There will be a witch hunt type trial, the state dept. will take over all casino activities (and tax them at over 90%), and your name will dragged through the mud along with all other card counters, blackjack players and casino goers!

    At any rate, you'll be making a mental note of all the 2's and 7's anyway...why count only half of them and make your count that much less efficient?

  2. #15
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    Higher PE and BC doesn't mean a higher win rate. It is how the BC and PE interact that counts. That is what determines the win rate. I am sure Red Zen is a step in the wrong direction. If you want the 2 and seven counted at half strength reduce the tags further and increase accuracy counting all of them.

  3. #16
    Senior Member Mr. White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    Higher PE and BC doesn't mean a higher win rate. It is how the BC and PE interact that counts. That is what determines the win rate. I am sure Red Zen is a step in the wrong direction. If you want the 2 and seven counted at half strength reduce the tags further and increase accuracy counting all of them.
    To the OP,

    Following T3's advice will give you a count called Unbalanced Zen 2. It will be no more difficult than the one you've described and significantly more accurate, as stated.

    It will also be easier to sim or find information/help on. The author even posts on this site.

    Or, as earlier suggested, spend the extra month in training getting good with true count conversions, and learn the "standard" Zen count (since you've already expressed a predilection towards using a level 2) , and reap the rewards for the rest of your playing career.
    "I did it for me..... I liked it. I was good at it...and I was...really...I was alive..."

  4. #17
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    Thank you for making me laugh.

  5. #18
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Nothing particularly new about the concept. The Olsen TruCount, developed in 1991, counted red sevens and nines as +1 and blacks as -1. It was a two-level count to start with. This made it a faux three level count. Personally, I would find it impossible to use.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  6. #19


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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    The Olsen TruCount, developed in 1991, counted red sevens and nines as +1 and blacks as -1.
    What am I missing? How could this possibly be better than counting all sevens and all nines as 0?

  7. #20
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Basically, it was an attempt at increasing the level of the count without an imbalance.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  8. #21


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    .

    Quote Originally Posted by 21gunsalute View Post


    Now, if it's an Indian casino and they discover you're favoring the reds you might be okay, but if Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and Barrack Obama find out you're discriminating against blacks, you've had it! There will be a witch hunt type trial, the state dept. will take over all casino activities (and tax them at over 90%), and your name will dragged through the mud ...

    I got busted for asking a short, simple question about self-protection since the question "contained political content."

    Then I see numerous posts that are much, much worse with no action taken. I am SO confused!!


    .
    Last edited by Math Demon; 07-27-2013 at 08:34 PM.

  9. #22


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    Quote Originally Posted by seriousplayer View Post
    Red Zen Count as you stated:

    A-(-1)
    2- .5
    3- 1
    4- 2
    5- 2
    6- 2
    7- .5
    8- 0
    9- 0
    10- (-2)

    From the blackjackinfo card counting efficiency calculator the Red Zen Count has PE = 0.6152, BC= 0.9510, IC= 0.8381. Comparing this to the original Zen count with the PE = 0.6268, BC= 0.9621, IC= 0.8498.
    The Red Zen count is:

    2 - 0 for black or 2 for red so if you could say 1 in your example.
    3 - 2
    7 - same as 2

    The author claims that it can add extra cover (in case of a disproportionate amount of one color 2s or 7s that might have been dealt) if you are being monitored by the EITS using other counting systems.

  10. #23
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    My studies show betting accuracy (not BC) is affected most by including too many low cards counted the same as the 4 and 5. This is a move in the wrong direction for betting accuracy. I question the value for cover. They will either be using Hilo to check you in which case this is probably more similar to Hilo since it counts more low cards the same. Remember Hilo doesn't count the 7. Or they will use a computer program that just analyzes how strong your play is compared to perfect play and BS. No count is considered. If the red and black 2's and/or 7's are disproportional the red approximation of their density is losing accuracy. It seems he is saying the weak point of counting a rank by color is somehow a strength. These things are all the opposite of reality. He is basically saying inaccurate play is something that you should seek out. Inaccurate play is called cover and you can make cover choices on your own with known costs at the times you think they are needed rather than leaving things to chance at random times.
    Last edited by Three; 11-26-2015 at 05:31 AM.

  11. #24


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    My studies show betting accuracy (not BC) is affected most by including too many low cards counted the same as the 4 and 5. This is a move in the wrong direction for betting accuracy. I question the value for cover. They will either be using Hilo to check you in which case this is probably more similar to Hilo since it counts more low cards the same. Remember Hilo doesn't count the 7. Or they will use a computer program that just analyzes how strong your play is compared to perfect play and BS. No count is considered. If the red and black 2's and/or 7's are disproportional the red approximation of their density is losing accuracy. It seems he is saying the weak point of counting a rank by color is somehow a strength. These things are all the opposite of reality. He is basically saying inaccurate play is something that you should seek out. Inaccurate play is called cover and you can make cover choices on your own with known costs at the times you think they are needed rather than leaving things to chance at random times.
    I'm not advocating this particular count system; I was simply correcting the values and stating one of the claims the author made. I am a simple hi-lo counter.

  12. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by foreign_BP View Post
    I'm not advocating this particular count system; I was simply correcting the values and stating one of the claims the author made. I am a simple hi-lo counter.
    I never said you were. I just was getting what I thought about the zen modification out there now that the correct values were posted.

  13. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by moses View Post
    In many cases, according to Sims, SCORE will improve significantly...and NO I don't know about n0, you'll have to compare and see.
    If you know how SCORE is affected you know how n0 is affected.

    n0 = 1,000,000/SCORE

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