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Thread: Was this normal procedure?

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    Senior Member blackjackomaha's Avatar
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    Was this normal procedure?

    I wasn't too long into a DD session recently and the TC was high enough to warrant near-max bets. It was not a large unit jump from my previous bets and didn't warrant a 'checks play'. The TC was still high after this round and warranted splitting 10's, so of course I did it. However, I did not have enough green so I pulled some black out and asked for check change. The dealer looked at me like I was an idiot, chastised me for thinking about splitting the hand, the table moaned, etc. As I questioned the dealer again for check change, the dealer tells me I don't need it, and splits my hand and puts the black out there and immediately yells 'BLACK ACTION'. Well, the floor person (who I believe was a shift supervisor) promptly walks over and smiles, tells me good luck, etc. The phone in the pit rings, and the floor person gets quiet and talks and I hear the first few letters of my last name being given to the EITS. Meanwhile, I had the opportunity to split 10's again, so I did with another buy-in, and was content with my hands. The table won and the floor person tells me I have balls, etc, etc and told me to be careful doing that at this table.

    The floor person walks away as I keep my bet the same and the dealer looks at me in slight disgust/slight jokingly tells me "thanks for the extra scrutiny, now they're watching me and if I make a mistake I'm screwed."

    Obviously, the EITS is watching me and the table. I've spit 10's at every table I've played at and this was the first time (at least that I know of) where the EITS called down. There has never been any heat and the employee's demeanor was still friendly. I was still down several units due to bad variance and took a meal break shortly thereafter.

    Well, I came on a different shift and the new floor person immediately asks if he can expect me to split my winning hands during his shift. I gave him some ploppy reasoning, he smiled and said "no offense, but I wish I could fill this table with people like you." With that he left.

    OK - so I need some input. Was the EITS call normal procedure? Am I on their radar from this point forward? All the floor/shift supervisors still seem friendly and haven't changed their attitudes. Also, should I have demanded check change rather than letting the dealer use my black?

    Thanks,
    -BJO
    You don't score, until you SCORE!

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    In certain venues, splitting 10's is the best way to generate heat!

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    Senior Member blackjackomaha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21gunsalute View Post
    In certain venues, splitting 10's is the best way to generate heat!
    I absolutely agree with you. In this particular game I've done it before without any issues. I thought the extra scrutiny might have stemmed from the use of black chips?
    You don't score, until you SCORE!

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    I suspect the scrutiny came more from the rat-holed blacks than splitting tens.
    Let me die in my sleep like my Grandfather.
    Not screaming in agony like his passengers.

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    “No offense, but I wish I could fill the table with people like you.” If this is true, why don’t they just leave you alone? It sounds like they don’t want anyone splitting tens in their store. You were warned certainly about doing it on the new shift so you are surely tagged. If they have reviewed your play, you are up for the tap soon.

    I wish I knew where to split tens and get away with it. A player who splits tens is either a counter or stupid. It won’t take the eye long to see which is the case. Other factors.

    There may be a rule within the store to make a call at black action on that move.

    Dealers hate moves that may chase others from their table and they are trained to scorn the move with looks and/or saying something about how dumb it is. If they say nothing and move on the others may feel he is supporting poor play and ruining the “flow of cards”. Should the entire table lose, there could easily be an exodus to other tables, thus possibly getting the attention of the pit and pissing off the dealer. I would love to hear other takes as this is just my mine.

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    Omaha,

    I would advise to stop splittting 10's. The key here is the eye was called and was evaluating your play and betting black will raise the possibility of a back off which I am sure you want no part of.

    Remember the Greed Factor will lead to the No BJ Factor which will kill your local playing career. Read the post by DOC on free BJ 21.

    I hope you will consider this advice. Milk this place a long time, take it easy.

    Ouchez

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    I am not sure why you are asking for input. I think you have already figured out that you you employed several moves that draw attention. 1.) splitting 10's, 2.) betting at a level that draws attention at this location, $100, and 3.) getting caught rat-holing chips, and black no less. Actually it wasn't so much of 'getting caught' as turning yourself in.

    So the question is (and one that needs to be answered before you sit down) is what is important to you at this location, maximizing EV or some sense of longevity? For myself, longevity is a top priority and as such, I am willing to 'give up' some EV in exchange for longevity. So I second the sound advice of Ouchez. Stop splitting 10's! The quote by Baberuth is a famous one in the blackjack world. "Only idiots and counters split 10's and it won't take them long to figure out which you are."

    The second issue that is a really big issue is bringing out the black chip. At most locations the pit people have to account for black chips. They are supposed to know where they are at and who walked with them. For this reason it is best to rat-hole green or red, not black. Once you are labeled a 'rat-holer' they will assign any missing chips to you and you will not only defeat the intended purpose of the action, but create the complete opposite effect.

    Lastly, it is important to find the comfort level in betting for each location and try to stay within that level. Granted, a place that sweats black play, it is pretty hard to stay in their comfort level. Once you leave that level, just know that you are being observed intently. After exposing yourself, you don't want to give them too much play to evaluate either in the present time or to review after the fact. That means short sessions. The rule I use is exiting after one bet cycle. I never let them see me reduce my wager after the shuffle, which is the biggest 'tell' of all. Not everybody plays a location where such extreme short sessions is feasible or they are not willing to play that way, but I would still shorten the number of times you go through the bet cycle. Each time you show your bet cycle you are exposing yourself more and giving them more ammunition to use against yourself.
    Last edited by KJ; 12-26-2011 at 10:12 AM.

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    Senior Member blackjackomaha's Avatar
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    Appreciate all of the input. Just curious - why would they allow me to come back and play on a different shift the same day if they had figured me out? Not that it was the smartest move, but I had my reasons for returning.
    You don't score, until you SCORE!

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackjackomaha View Post
    Appreciate all of the input. Just curious - why would they allow me to come back and play on a different shift the same day if they had figured me out? Not that it was the smartest move, but I had my reasons for returning.
    The person that makes that decision may not have been in house at that time and the eye did not want to take sole responsibility for backing you off or worse. Also it may be policy to review your play in greater detail before taking action, this takes time.

    Ouchez.

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    Either they had no one available to trust a count down of past play, they are waiting for a session where you are losing (they love to give the tap in a losing session) or after review you haven't spooked them. One thing for sure is you have caused them to relay a message to another shift. Not good. You are going to be watched. Like Ouchez said, the guy to make the called was not there or is waiting for more data.
    Not sure where the blacks came from when you said "Pulled some blacks out", but I second never rathole black!
    It sounds like you are in an area where there aren't a lot of places to play. Be careful not to end your fun.
    Q. for KJ. Going back to a smaller bet at the start of a cycle seems common for most players at the table. That may be a good topic here, if not too much info.

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    Well, I'd sure be interested in blackjackomaha's future experiences at this place, if he is willing to share. Would be interesting to see what happens given what's been advised/predicted here.
    Just another insignificant salamander trying to evolve. Or seek revenge.

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    Senior Member Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kewljason View Post
    I am not sure why you are asking for input. I think you have already figured out that you you employed several moves that draw attention. 1.) splitting 10's, 2.) betting at a level that draws attention at this location, $100, and 3.) getting caught rat-holing chips, and black no less. Actually it wasn't so much of 'getting caught' as turning yourself in.

    So the question is (and one that needs to be answered before you sit down) is what is important to you at this location, maximizing EV or some sense of longevity? For myself, longevity is a top priority and as such, I am willing to 'give up' some EV in exchange for longevity. So I second the sound advice of Ouchez. Stop splitting 10's! The quote by Baberuth is a famous one in the blackjack world. "Only idiots and counters split 10's and it won't take them long to figure out which you are."

    The second issue that is a really big issue is bringing out the black chip. At most locations the pit people have to account for black chips. They are supposed to know where they are at and who walked with them. For this reason it is best to rat-hole green or red, not black. Once you are labeled a 'rat-holer' they will assign any missing chips to you and you will not only defeat the intended purpose of the action, but create the complete opposite effect.

    Lastly, it is important to find the comfort level in betting for each location and try to stay within that level. Granted, a place that sweats black play, it is pretty hard to stay in their comfort level. Once you leave that level, just know that you are being observed intently. After exposing yourself, you don't want to give them too much play to evaluate either in the present time or to review after the fact. That means short sessions. The rule I use is exiting after one bet cycle. I never let them see me reduce my wager after the shuffle, which is the biggest 'tell' of all. Not everybody plays a location where such extreme short sessions is feasible or they are not willing to play that way, but I would still shorten the number of times you go through the bet cycle. Each time you show your bet cycle you are exposing yourself more and giving them more ammunition to use against yourself.
    It is the biggest tell, but another tell associated with repeat performances at the same venue is the ramping up at plus counts and then leaving precipitously at the end of the run. After a couple of times it is no longer pure coincidence. Playing unrated, you still have a "tag" on you, if you repeat playing and especially if you repeat winning, a few times. Fortunately, many stores where you play do not get pay attention much until you bet $500 on a hand. Each has its own criterion.

    As for the EITS calling down, they will frequently do that at the first sign of a tell, and since they themselves often do not have time to sweat the player, they will pass the responsibility on to the pit supervisor, especially in the case where the PS knows how to count. What the OP did to shake the heat, which he apparently did, I do not know. Maybe, when the PS made his statement he had not counted the game, but merely presupposed that the OP was a ploppy splitting tens, which is generally a stupid move (He said something to the effect of, "I wish I had more like you.") As you pointed out, there were sufficient reasons for the EITS to take notice-- first and foremost, splitting tens, then transacting a black, and remotely possible, the EITS knew it was a plus count. The PS did not show much confidence in his own abilities to detect counting, since he indicated displeasure that now he was also being observed, ostensibly to see if he was any good as a first line of defense. He seemed to conclude that the OP was just another ploppy, but the EITS may not soon forget. Sometime when things are less hectic for him (he has many diverse duties), he may evaluate the OP, and maybe just to confirm how lame the PS really is.
    Last edited by Aslan; 12-26-2011 at 11:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baberuth View Post
    Q. for KJ. Going back to a smaller bet at the start of a cycle seems common for most players at the table. That may be a good topic here, if not too much info.
    Going from a large wager at the end of a shoe back to a small or waiting wager at the start of a new shoe is one of the biggest tells, Baberuth, but you are correct, that alone proves nothing as many ploppies to so. I have mentioned before that I have an acquaintance who works in a pit here in vegas that shared with me a list of 5 activities or plays that counters do. Things like playing 16 vs 10 and insurance differently at different times. Splitting 10's, bet spread and a few others. Incidentally this info is not unique. I have seem similar mentions by other surveillance type guys, either, Bill Zender, Derek Boss, Vinny Decarlo or Celleni, I can't recall whom. Now the key point is that any of these activities alone means nothing. As, said ploppies do so all the time. But employing a few of these tactics gives them reason, almost encourages them to take a second look at you.

    If you bet small off the top and increase later in the shoe, doesn't by itself, mean you are a counter. Many ploppies bet this way. People playing progressions, players chasing losses or parlaying win. There was even some voodoo type system I read about which employed this type of betting strategy that had nothing to do with the count, just larger wagers near the end of the shoe.

    If you only give them one crack at seeing your betting pattern, it's pretty difficult to determine just what you are doing. And the last thing they want to do is flag a player using one of these other betting methods that just happens to coincide with raising during positive counts. But give them several shots at eyeballing that betting pattern and it fairly quickly becomes crystal clear.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    It is the biggest tell, but another tell associated with repeat performances at the same venue is the ramping up at plus counts and then leaving precipitously at the end of the run. After a couple of times it is no longer pure coincidence. Playing unrated, you still have a "tag" on you, if you repeat playing and especially if you repeat winning, a few times. Fortunately, many stores where you play do not get pay attention much until you bet $500 on a hand. Each has its own criterion.
    This really has not been my experience, Aslan. I guess the term 'repeat performances at the same venue' is an important one for this discussion. If you have only a handful of local stores that you play, then yes, repeated anonymous play would be an issue and viewed as suspicious. I have many stores in my rotations and go to extra lengths to vary play among stores and shifts actually setting up a playing schedule. No doubt $500 is a major wagering threshold at many locations. But just knowing that, and other points that are such thresholds for each place you play is valuable info in the quest for longevity.
    Last edited by KJ; 12-26-2011 at 01:06 PM.

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