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Thread: Can player casino interaction be simulated on a computer?

  1. #27
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kat View Post
    Where is the umlaut?
    This is Olde English, not German.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  2. #28
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AussiePlayer View Post
    All this from a guy who believes in dice control?

    I'd suggest this thread should be moved to voodoo, except that it's supposed to be about advantageplayer.com
    As I understand it, he believes in beating dice by not hitting the back wall. I should think there exists a possibility of advantage in this circumstance.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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    Remember that the casinos that can afford it can run Blackjack Survey Voice, a computer program, on you and nail you if you are moving your money with the count. This program can also discern if you are STing by determining if you are consistently betting more in high 10s ratio rounds. The house computer can trigger a skills check without human intervention based on your long term or short term winning activity. You may have the PB fooled but you can't fool the computer. Of course, a sim can certainly be programmed in the same way the house computer is programmed.

  4. #30
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    You can't simulate reads. It is like the difference between online poker and live poker. Any poker player knows exactly what I mean. You are reading the pit and bluffing their tests etc. It is different than setting some parameters for the computer to follow. Maybe the fact that I know this and others believe a computer can simulate read peoples reactions is why I haven't been backed off but once in 35 years of playing Blackjack.
    I have played high stakes Poker in private games for decades (games with cops gambling their uniform allowances, Mafioso, backrooms in strip clubs, etc.) and have also played a little bit of Blackjack. I don't know why you think that I don't understand what you are saying. It's obvious to everyone here. And, I don't know why you think that computers can't beat online Poker players. Now, how much knowledge do you have of Monte Carlo simulation techniques?

    I have a problem here. There are a few absolutely awful Blackjack simulation programs available, and a lot of people come here saying they are building BJ simulation software that have no concept of beating casino Blackjack. Some people have seen them and think that they somehow represent what can be done. That is a shame. What can be done is vastly beyond your idea of software capability.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  5. #31
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mofungoo View Post
    Remember that the casinos that can afford it can run Blackjack Survey Voice, a computer program, on you and nail you if you are moving your money with the count. This program can also discern if you are STing by determining if you are consistently betting more in high 10s ratio rounds. The house computer can trigger a skills check without human intervention based on your long term or short term winning activity. You may have the PB fooled but you can't fool the computer. Of course, a sim can certainly be programmed in the same way the house computer is programmed.
    I seriously doubt that Blackjack Survey Voice will correctly identify any counter that does not sit at a table for hours.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    And, I don't know why you think that computers can't beat online Poker players.
    That is not what I said. I said the difference between playing online and live is the ability to read your opponent. That is the difference between a sim and a live BJ game. You can read the casino response to your play and adjust. There is nothing to read in a sim as there are no people just like when you play online. There are no people to read only their bets and their time to respond. No tells except maybe the most subtle tells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    What can be done is vastly beyond your idea of software capability.
    I understand what can be done but reading human reactions when there is no human doing the reading and no human to read is not the same as actually doing it live. You can make it close but all the art and human ability must be totally lost. That is all I have been trying to say. Any poker players that play both live and online knows exactly what I am talking about unless they are really bad at reading people.
    Last edited by Three; 06-11-2013 at 05:30 PM.

  7. #33
    Senior Member njrich's Avatar
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    All this talk of computers thinking and acting like humans.What's next Ciberdyne?
    Where's John Conner when you need him?
    Beware the fury of a patient man.

  8. #34
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    Norm is currently working on that. LOL

  9. #35
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    Any poker players that play both live and online knows exactly what I am talking about unless they are really bad at reading people.
    You do know that you can chat with online Poker players as you play.

    At high-stakes, pro Poker play (championship, not home games), tells are few when you get to the final tables. Computers are better at beating better players.

    Richard Reid, when he retired, decided to give up the simple game of Blackjack and solve Chess. People think of Chess as a purely intellectual game. Chess is a game of intense psychological warfare. A championship game is emotionally exhausting. The top Chess players in the world make heavy use of computers. Indeed, computers have beaten grandmasters. When chess computers relied on vast memory of games and speed, they failed. They started winning against top players when they took into account the emotional aspects. I’m a really crappy Chess player. But, I have won against people with far more expertise by distraction and pressure. Computers can be easily programmed to understand, and overcome, human weaknesses.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  10. #36
    Senior Member njrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthiness View Post
    You totally missed the point! That Ivan guy at Wong's site did not ask anyone to simulate human factor. He just wanted to know how good his system is compared to other systems.
    Some things other than humans evolve just like this thread did.
    Beware the fury of a patient man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by truthiness View Post
    You totally missed the point! That Ivan guy at Wong's site did not ask anyone to simulate human factor. He just wanted to know how good his system is compared to other systems.
    Nobody missed the point. I was never talking about that. My initial point was poorly made but was that you will encounter aspects of the game in the casino that can't be simmed. What I was talking about was reading humans and the human interactions that we call an act and cover. You create a persona and sell it. If your play and your act work in concert you are usually successful. A simulator can't simulate the human aspect of that part of the game. It can play the plays used for cover but can't sell the act or read the reaction to it from those you are trying to deceive and adjust accordingly.
    Last edited by Three; 06-11-2013 at 07:14 PM.

  12. #38
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    It is kind of strange that different personas have evolved at different stores for me due to all the interactions with everything that you must improv into your play. You operate without a script and react to the other players the dealer, the cards dealt and you wins and losses as an improv actor would on stage working without a script. You might have a plan as to what you want to sell but it is all fluid and a persona is created by how the casino perceives you. Then you must assume that persona in that casino in the future. They believe that is who you are. It might not at all be who you wanted them to believe you to be but they made up their mind. If you sold your initial act that's what they believe but they will believe what they will. It is your job to figure out what that is and be that person in the future.

  13. #39
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Sorry, my persona chip is on the fritz today and I had to send it back to the factory for repairs. I'll be speaking primarily in binary today.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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