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Thread: JB: Counting with KO

  1. #14
    Cacarulo
    Guest

    Cacarulo: Re: Clarification, again ..

    > Maybe this time will do it for me, but I
    > don't get the simplicity .. what am I
    > missing?

    > 6D shoe, 2 decks gone, 4 remain.
    > 12 net excess small cards dealt.
    > HILO calls it RC +12. KO calls it RC -8.
    > What is the TC?

    If you started the RC at -24 and 12 net excess small cards were dealt then KO calls for -12.
    TC = -12/4 = -3. For Hi-Lo it would be +12/4 = +3 in this particular example.
    If the RC is -8 it means that 16 net excess small cards were dealt. That would be -8/4 = -2
    In average a TC of 0 for TKO means a TC of +4 for Hi-Lo.

    > 6D shoe, 2 decks gone, 4 remain.
    > 12 net excess big cards dealt.
    > HILO calls it RC -12. KO calls it RC -32.
    > What is the TC?

    You can work this out for homework

    Sincerely,
    Cac

  2. #15
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: Re: Clarification, again ..

    > You can work this out for homework

    Thanks, I just wanted someone else to voice the answer and see if it still sounded ridiculous to me.

    > If you started the RC at -24 and 12 net
    > excess small cards were dealt then KO calls
    > for -12. TC = -12/4 = -3.

    > For Hi-Lo it would be +12/4 = +3.

    The TC is indeed plus 3. Except for KO users, it is -3.

    Parker says "using a pivot of zero makes true-counting (an un-balanced count) incredibly easy, as all you have to do is divide by number of unseen decks, just as with a balanced count."

    Incredibly easy I guess if you don't mind using the KO decoder ring to let you know that TC -3 is really what the rest of the world commonly refers to as +3.

    Somehow as a counter I was hoping the KO TC process would return the universally accepted answer at that place in the deck of 'plus 3' .. an answer that would be meaningful without anymore thought going in to it.

    I really don't have a grudge against un-balanced counts and I'm not trying to be difficult; I'm just looking for that ease of use.

    Parker -looking forward to the book. I'm sure it will be clear enough then.

  3. #16
    Don Schlesinger
    Guest

    Don Schlesinger: No, wrong

    > Thanks, I just wanted someone else to voice
    > the answer and see if it still sounded
    > ridiculous to me.

    > The TC is indeed plus 3. Except for KO
    > users, it is -3.

    No, it's -1!

    > Parker says "using a pivot of zero
    > makes true-counting (an un-balanced count)
    > incredibly easy, as all you have to do is
    > divide by number of unseen decks, just as
    > with a balanced count."

    > Incredibly easy I guess if you don't mind
    > using the KO decoder ring to let you know
    > that TC -3 is really what the rest of the
    > world commonly refers to as +3.

    K-O true counts are always four lower than Hi-Lo true counts. In the example above, the reference was to 12 excess small cards. This would be in addition to the imbalance of 8 small cards that you get for dealing two decks. So, the RC is -4, not -12, and the K-O TC is -4/4 = -1, not -12/4 = -3.

    > Somehow as a counter I was hoping the KO TC
    > process would return the universally
    > accepted answer at that place in the deck of
    > 'plus 3' .. an answer that would be
    > meaningful without anymore thought going in
    > to it.

    Live with it! :-)

    > I really don't have a grudge against
    > un-balanced counts and I'm not trying to be
    > difficult; I'm just looking for that ease of
    > use.

    The problem is what you start with. If it's Hi-Lo, then anything else seems "strange" to you; if it's K-O, right out of the box, you don't have the comparison to Hi-Lo to confuse you.

    Don

  4. #17
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: Re: Clarification, again ..

    Just remember one simple fact, and things should fall into place for you:

    TKO TC 0 = Hi-lo TC +4

    In other words, you'd want to start ramping your bets up at KO TC -3.


  5. #18
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: OK .. I've got it now. :)

    First, thank you both because for the first time I really do get it.

    Now, for the requisite sarcasm. Although, in every joke there is a hint of truth!

    I'll begin with Parker's statement ..

    "Using a pivot of zero makes true-counting incredibly easy, as all you have to do is divide by number of unseen decks, just as with a balanced count."

    Is that right.

    TC'ing a 6D shoe with a balanced count ..
    1. Keep the RC, starting with zero.
    2. Divide by unseen decks.

    TC'ing a 6D shoe with KO ..
    1. Keep the RC, after starting deep in the negative hole with an IRC of -24.
    2. Park the current negative RC in #1 off to the side of the brain, then, multipy the number of decks in the discard tray by 4.
    3. Add #1 and the answer in #2 together. (Already forgot #1? Ooops.)
    4. Divide the answer found in #3 by number of unseen decks.
    5. Add '4' to the answer determined in #4. Or, just start remembering that TKO -5 is really -1; TKO -1 is really +3, etc, etc.

    Presto!

    6. Be sure and sit as far away from first base as possible -you'll need the extra time.

    1a. Adjust the negative IRC by some arbitrary large positive number; but be prepared to adjust, and keep adjusting, all other known landmarks along the way.

    I'm not out to bag on KO; I believe KO, straight out of the box, gives HILO a run for the money anyway. And TKO is the bomb as a counting system. I just find statements regarding it's ease of use, once it begins to get modified, a little simplistic.

    Refering back to some other recent posts, if you plan to bring KO to the ST'ing party, I'm guessing more mental gymnastics will be in order.

    Thanks again fellas; I mean that. It took both your posts for me to see the light and confirm what I thought was true .. TC'ing KO is hard work!!


  6. #19
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: Re: OK .. I've got it now. :)

    I have no idea what you're talking about with #2 and #3. You start with the IRC for a zero pivot point (-24 for 6 deck) and divide by the unseen decks.

    That's it. That's all.

    If you want to know an equivalent Hi-lo count, you would indeed add +4 to the TC (#5), but there is no reason to even be concerned with that. You would just learn a bet ramp starting to ramp up at TC -3. Your indices would be adjusted as well (example: 16 vs 10 = -4).

    I'm not saying that it would be easy for someone already comfortable with Hi-lo to switch to TKO, nor do I recommend that they do so.

    However, for someone starting out with KO and with no pre-conceived ideas regarding TC already in their mind, adding a TC conversion would be fairly trivial, expecially if (as I recommend) they learn it with the pivot point standardized to 0 from day one.

  7. #20
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: I'll let it go for now.

    I'm sure it is crystal clear to everyone else.

    But first,

    > I have no idea what you're talking about .. you start with the IRC for a zero pivot point
    > (-24 for 6 deck) and divide by the unseen decks. That's it. That's all.

    2 decks gone, 4 decks unseen, twelve excess small cards played, IRC is -24, RC is now -12.

    Divide RC -12 by 4 and get your KO TC of -3.

    [Have I jumped the track yet?]

    What does that mean to me? What do I relate that number to?

    Play like I never heard of HILO in my life.

    Where do I go to find out that the number -3 above is telling me I have an approx 1.5% increase in my advantage?



    I'm still smiling, but I'm beginning to sound like SSR and I don't like it very much.

  8. #21
    Don Schlesinger
    Guest

    Don Schlesinger: You really don't understand

    > I'm sure it is crystal clear to everyone
    > else.

    Maybe, but that doesn't help you, so we'll try again.

    > But first,

    > 2 decks gone, 4 decks unseen, twelve excess
    > small cards played, IRC is -24, RC is now
    > -12.

    I explained this once, but you seem to have ignored it. there is an imbalance of 4 small cards with every deck in K-O. [/i]Without having any excess whatsoever,[/i] after two decks are gone, you expect the -24 RC to have increased to by 8 to -16. You have no edge because of that increase at all. If, in reality, there are now 12 excess small cards dealt in addition to the 8 expected,, then the RC is -4. Dividing by 4, the TC becomes -1. You make a larger bet, because, as a TKO player, you know that TC = -1 means a nice advantage.

    You don't have to relate anything to Hi-Lo. Some people don't know Hi-Lo exists.

    > Divide RC -12 by 4 and get your KO TC of -3.

    > [Have I jumped the track yet?]

    Yes, you have. See above.

    > What does that mean to me? What do I relate
    > that number to?

    Nothing at all. You relate it to values that mean something to a TKO player.

    > Play like I never heard of HILO in my life.

    Exactly! See, you're learning already! :-)

    > Where do I go to find out that the number -3
    > above is telling me I have an approx 1.5%
    > increase in my advantage?

    >

    To TKO books, articles, posts, etc.

    > I'm still smiling, but I'm beginning to
    > sound like SSR and I don't like it very
    > much.

    Patience, patience.

    Don

  9. #22
    Cacarulo
    Guest

    Cacarulo: Maybe another example could help

    First, let's forget about Hi-Lo for know.

    You're a TKO player and start playing a 6D shoe. Your IRC (initial running count) is -24 (-4*#decks) and your ITC (initial TC) is -24/6 = -4.
    Say only 12 small cards (2-7) were dealt after the first round. Your RC is now updated as follows:

    RC = IRC + 12 = -24 + 12 = -12
    Since there are still 6D remaining (5.77 to be precise) your TC is now updated to:

    TC = -12/6 = -2

    If at this moment you see 4 big cards (A,T) coming out of the shoe your RC would be updated as:

    RC = -12 - 4 = -16. As you can see the IRC is no longer required. It is used only at the beginning
    of the shoe.

    Now enters Hi-Lo. Suppose you wanted to know what your advantage is, as a TKO player, when your TC is -2.
    The answer is simple: It is approximately the same advantage a Hi-Lo player would have when his TC is +2 (-2 + 4).

    That's all.

    Hope this helps.

    Cac

  10. #23
    Praying Mantis
    Guest

    Praying Mantis: Thanks for Setting the Record Straight *NM*


  11. #24
    Praying Mantis
    Guest

    Praying Mantis: Huh? Hello?

    > You're a TKO player and start playing a 6D
    > shoe. Your IRC (initial running count) is
    > -24 (-4*#decks) and your ITC (initial TC) is
    > -24/6 = -4.

    Huh? I checked again and the formulae for KO is 4-(4*#decks)or -20 for 6 Deck, not -24. Anyway, that is what I've been using for 6 Deck.

    My thoughts on all of this. I am a KO player and have thought about moving to TKO, but does TKO have an advantage over Hi-Lo? I don't know. But that is what I want to know.

    Simply, if TKO has no more of an advantage over regular TC Hi-Lo, I will just move to Hi-Lo. It would be a lot simpler to count Hi-Lo and TC than go thru all the mental gymnastics of dealing with negative numbers with TKO, even with Parker's TKO.

    So, for me, is TKO gonna give me a bigger edge at the tables than Hi-Lo? General consensus is that it will. If so, I guess I will deal with those negative numbers.

    I'm basically a "simpleton" and don't like to muddy the waters too much. So...if Parker is reading this...get that damn book out so we can decide.

    Thanks for all your input, I greatly appreciate them all.

    PM

  12. #25
    Cacarulo
    Guest

    Cacarulo: Re: Huh? Hello?

    > Huh? I checked again and the formulae for KO
    > is 4-(4*#decks)or -20 for 6 Deck, not -24.
    > Anyway, that is what I've been using for 6
    > Deck.

    Yes, that's correct for KO but not for TKO. In fact, for KO you can use any IRC but for TKO you must use only one.

    > My thoughts on all of this. I am a KO player
    > and have thought about moving to TKO, but
    > does TKO have an advantage over Hi-Lo? I
    > don't know. But that is what I want to know.

    Yes, definitely. I've posted some SCOREs in the past that you may want to see. Just do a search on this site and you'll find them.

    > Simply, if TKO has no more of an advantage
    > over regular TC Hi-Lo, I will just move to
    > Hi-Lo. It would be a lot simpler to count
    > Hi-Lo and TC than go thru all the mental
    > gymnastics of dealing with negative numbers
    > with TKO, even with Parker's TKO.

    KO is almost the same as Hi-Lo. Also, I would say that it's better when you have a deeply dealt game.

    > So, for me, is TKO gonna give me a bigger
    > edge at the tables than Hi-Lo? General
    > consensus is that it will. If so, I guess I
    > will deal with those negative numbers.

    Yes.

    > Thanks for all your input, I greatly
    > appreciate them all.

    You're welcome.

    Sincerely,
    Cac

  13. #26
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: Re: Huh? Hello?

    > Huh? I checked again and the formulae for KO
    > is 4-(4*#decks)or -20 for 6 Deck, not -24.

    For the disussion we are having, the IRC is -24 as has been stated. What that is doing is adjusting KO's pivot to zero.

    > My thoughts on all of this. I am a KO player
    > and have thought about moving to TKO, but
    > does TKO have an advantage over Hi-Lo?

    Each game is different, but for a particular shoe game and spread that Cacarulo has posted numbers on, TKO has a signifigant advantage over HILO.

    > Simply, if TKO has no more of an advantage
    > over regular TC Hi-Lo, I will just move to
    > Hi-Lo.

    Of course the term 'TC Hi-Lo' is redundant; HILO is by default true counted. Again, I believe it does in certain shoe games and certain spreads.

    > It would be a lot simpler to count
    > Hi-Lo and TC than go thru all the mental
    > gymnastics of dealing with negative numbers
    > with TKO, even with Parker's TKO.

    That is certainly debatable.

    > So, for me, is TKO gonna give me a bigger
    > edge at the tables than Hi-Lo?

    For shoe games with larger spreads? Probabaly.

    > If so, I guess I will deal with those negative numbers.

    KO and negative numbers are not that tough, and you can avoid them. It just takes a little tweaking.

    > I'm basically a "simpleton"

    Some would say I am also.


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