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Thread: Sun Runner: Ace side count (Cardkountr)

  1. #1
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: Ace side count (Cardkountr)

    Back in October 2004 you discussed your Ace side count.

    I know you use Hilo and obviously Hilo is already ace reckoned.

    In that post you spoke of using the side count only as an adjustment for insurance decisions.

    Do you let the sidecount effect your decision for other playing decisions .. and if so how?

    Anyone else?

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    bfbagain
    Guest

    bfbagain: Comments

    I use AOII W/Ace side count. Now you know that the ace is neutral, so it's primary use is for betting. It has little value all in all in multiple deck games for betting, but I've been doing it for so long, that even though I rarely have an opportunity to use it for betting in 6 deck games, I know what it is at all times regardless. It really is automatic. That said, it is extremely valuable in DD and SD games, and yes, I get to play SD games occasionally.

    Which brings me to your question. The AOII playing strategy doesn't incorporate the use of the ace for play deviations, however......

    There is one. Yes, there is one play that can and should be used, and that's when you're in an extremely ace rich pack, a monster count, a max bet on the felt, and you're dealt an 11 vs dealer ten.

    Do I double? No. I look at this as a risk-averse play change. I am much more likely to make this decision in a SD game than a DD game, but I have used it in a deeply dealt DD game, near the end of the pack. It's unlikely that I would make this play in the first deck dealt of a DD game.

    Really, how ace-rich is the pack, the penetration and count at the time is what I take into consideration before making this type of play.

    cheers
    bfb

  3. #3
    Ouchez
    Guest

    Ouchez: Right on....

    > I use AOII W/Ace side count. Now you know
    > that the ace is neutral, so it's primary use
    > is for betting. It has little value all in
    > all in multiple deck games for betting, but
    > I've been doing it for so long, that even
    > though I rarely have an opportunity to use
    > it for betting in 6 deck games, I know what
    > it is at all times regardless. It really is
    > automatic. That said, it is extremely
    > valuable in DD and SD games, and yes, I get
    > to play SD games occasionally.

    > Which brings me to your question. The AOII
    > playing strategy doesn't incorporate the use
    > of the ace for play deviations,
    > however......

    > There is one. Yes, there is one play that
    > can and should be used, and that's when
    > you're in an extremely ace rich pack, a
    > monster count, a max bet on the felt, and
    > you're dealt an 11 vs dealer ten.

    > Do I double? No. I look at this as a
    > risk-averse play change. I am much more
    > likely to make this decision in a SD game
    > than a DD game, but I have used it in a
    > deeply dealt DD game, near the end of the
    > pack. It's unlikely that I would make this
    > play in the first deck dealt of a DD game.

    > Really, how ace-rich is the pack, the
    > penetration and count at the time is what I
    > take into consideration before making this
    > type of play.

    > cheers
    > bfb

    I also use it in deep DD games to jump my bet considerably in the high count situation with many aces still undealt. I find it a remarkable help in getting the money. Of course it is much more valuable when playing heads up or with you, the dealer, and a teammate.

    Ouchez.

  4. #4
    MissR
    Guest

    MissR: Re: Ace side count (Cardkountr)

    > Back in October 2004 you discussed your Ace
    > side count.

    > I know you use Hilo and obviously Hilo is
    > already ace reckoned.

    > In that post you spoke of using the side
    > count only as an adjustment for insurance
    > decisions.

    > Do you let the sidecount effect your
    > decision for other playing decisions .. and
    > if so how?

    > Anyone else?

    > Thanks.

    I use the side ace count for both bet variation and determining whether or not to double 11,10,9,8 or split 9's and 10's.
    Here's how I do it for SD or DD
    Easy Example SD:If I were at the half deck level and all 4 aces are still in the deck I would have a surplus of 2 aces, I would add +2 for each ace (+4) and then use the multiplier of 2 (true count) for a total of +8, I will then add the +8 to my true count, this for the purpose of bet variation.
    For doubling a 10 I give the ace an extra 50% factor, at the same half deck level as above, I would add +12 to my true count instead of +8 to determine whether or not to double down on 10.
    Decisions for double on 9 I only give an extra 25% factor(+10). No extra factor for double on 8.
    Splitting 10's are given an extra 50%, same as double 10, Splitting 9's extra 25%.
    When determining whether to double 11 I give aces left in the deck minus 2 towards running count, and aces dealt +2 towards running count,then do multiplier for true count.
    My count is not ace reckoned.

    Hope I helped


  5. #5
    Don Schlesinger
    Guest

    Don Schlesinger: Re: Ace side count (Cardkountr)

    > Easy Example SD:If I were at the half deck
    > level and all 4 aces are still in the deck I
    > would have a surplus of 2 aces, I would add
    > +2 for each ace (+4) and then use the
    > multiplier of 2 (true count) for a total of
    > +8, I will then add the +8 to my true count,
    > this for the purpose of bet variation.

    Suggestion: Doing it your way, you have to compute the TC twice -- once originally, and then again, after the ace adjustment. Why not add the ace-adjusted count to the running count, and then calculate the TC at the end, after the adjustment? That way, you calculate the TC just once -- at the end.

    Simpler, no?

    Don

  6. #6
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: Re: Comments

    > There is one. Yes, there is one play that
    > can and should be used, and that's when
    > you're in an extremely ace rich pack, a
    > monster count, a max bet on the felt, and
    > you're dealt an 11 vs dealer ten.

    Specifically, the monster count needed to double a natural (multi-deck, Hilo) is 14, 12, 10, 8, and 8 for the dealer 2 thru 6 respectively. [Schlesinger, August 2002]

    > Do I double? No. I look at this as a risk-averse play change.

    I do, when given the chance. Of course I like splitting tens also so what are ya gonna do?!

    But this still leaves me wondering about an ace side count for Hilo for other playing decisions.

    You and MissR do not use an ace reckoned sysytem; I do.

    Cacarulo has penned that Hilo/A beats Hilo (c-Score) by a little over 5%. Possibly he is only using it for insurance as well.

    Still wondering how to best implement the ace side count with Hilo .. thanks all.

    Maybe when CK gets back from another of his $25K road trips he'll weigh in!




  7. #7
    bfbagain
    Guest

    bfbagain: Ah, did I say "natural?" :-)

    Of all the plays I have done, doubling a blackjack with a max bet out is not one of them.

    Have I done it? Yes, but only for grins, with basically nothing bet, and not against a dealer 10.

    Unless it was good for me, and I didn't care if I ever set foot in the place I was in, AND it was a minimum bet, and, and, and, and a final AND, (take your pick), then, maybe I would double, as my only purpose would be to spit in the eye of the dump (it would have to be) and be gone.

    But that's a lot if's, "ands", and spit. :-)

    cheers
    bfb

  8. #8
    Zenfighter
    Guest

    Zenfighter: Re:Cacarulo's sims inferences

    The game analyzed is 6D,S17,DOA,DAS,SPA1,SPL3,NS,5/6,Catch-22 floored indices,heads up,5000 million rounds.

     
    Hi-Lo/A $ 37.02 (1-12 spread)

    Hi-Lo $ 34.84 (1-12 spread)



    As you can see, the gain in SCORE is assuming all the indexes are adjusted for playing purposes.

    Keeping a side count of aces while using an ace-reckoned count for insurance only, won?t be enough compensation for your efforts, due mainly to the meager increase in playing correlation of the Hilo adjusted for aces. Btw, PBJ (1981 Edition) has all the indexes inside it. Wong dropped all these tables, because he was convinced that your win rate?s improvement would be meaningless. Cac seems to be from a different opinion. :-)

    Sincerely

    Zenfighter

  9. #9
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: Re:Cacarulo's sims inferences

    > The game analyzed is 6D,S17,DOA,DAS,SPA1,SPL3,NS,5/6,Catch-22 floored indices, heads up

    Yes, I know, it's almost exactly my bread and butter game.

    > As you can see, the gain in SCORE is ...

    You mean c-SCORE I'm sure.

    > assuming all the indexes are adjusted for playing purposes.

    All 22 of them you mean? I can do that.

    > Keeping a side count of aces while using an
    > ace-reckoned count for insurance only, won?t
    > be enough compensation for your efforts, due
    > mainly to the meager increase in playing
    > correlation of the Hilo adjusted for aces.

    OK, point taken.

    > Wong dropped all these tables,
    > because he was convinced that your win
    > rate?s improvement would be meaningless.

    > Cac seems to be from a different opinion.

    While I generally believe simpler is better, how hard is it really? Also, I'm guessing with the progress made in calc'ing things such as this, Cac might be right and Wong .. wrong.

    Could I get a short primer in the ace side count? Is it simply the sum of the RC and any excess aces, converted to TC at that point in time?

    Last, is there any value in treating an ace deficent shoe the same?

    Thanks again all.

  10. #10
    Don Schlesinger
    Guest

    Don Schlesinger: Re: Comments

    > Specifically, the monster count needed to
    > double a natural (multi-deck, Hilo) is 14,
    > 12, 10, 8, and 8 for the dealer 2 thru 6
    > respectively. [Schlesinger, August 2002]

    Careful!! Don't take my name in vain! :-)

    Those aren't indices for doubling a natural. They're Hi-Lo indices for doubling on A,T, after you split aces and get a ten on either or both of them. Obviously, the 21 is NOT a natural, with the 3:2 bonus.

    Don

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