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Thread: HOLLYWOOD: I'm really annoyed by this

  1. #11
    Titaniumman
    Guest

    Titaniumman: That's great advice.

    Several years ago, I was playing in the smaller casino at Caesars Palace. I was only a basic strategy player at the time, and was playing $50/hand on first base at a full 6 deck table. The dealer was fast, and automatically playing obvious hands for the players. She was playing correct b.s. so far, so I didn't complain.

    I had a hard total of 15, and she had a seven showing. Before I could signal to hit, she tossed a six on the next player! Of course, I immediately spoke up, and the dealer called over the pit boss.

    I explained the situation, and made sure to state that basic strategy called for a hit. Everyone at the table told the pit boss that I was not given time to signal my hand. I expected the dealer to concede, but she said snidely, "He's only complaining because the card is a six."

    The pit boss said that the best she could do was to let me back out of the hand.

    I gathered up my chips, refused to color up, and stalked out in a huff. The one consolation was that I walked out to the bigger casino area, and proceeded to have my biggest winning session ever.

    I no longer allow any dealer to assume any decision for me.

  2. #12
    Norm Wattenberger
    Guest

    Norm Wattenberger: Oddly

    I think all of the posts above are great even though contradictory in places. Personally, I like it when a good dealer starts playing for me in heads-up play as you can reach an incredible speed. Sometimes the dealer can also begin to feel he is a partner. After all he is playing most of the hands. In one case playing DD (rare for me) at the usually tight Mir*ge, I played with a dealer that played for me and knew how to count. He asked me if I was counting. I told him that I once dabbled with counting and found it too boring, but had some idea when the count was up. He began increasing penetration when the count was high.

    Clearly, there is a danger of a dealer playing incorrectly in an odd situation. What I've done is to raise my hand to stop him and then make a signal or DD bet. This is more obvious and faster than reaching for chips. Plus, when you reach for chips, your head dips and this can be taken as a sign that you've given up interest in the hand. When the count is high, you must be ready to this immediately. I'll also do this on occasion to test the dealer on an obvious play.

  3. #13
    Don Schlesinger
    Guest

    Don Schlesinger: Re: That's great advice.

    Your point provides the answer that I was prepared to give to MathProf.

    Dealers rarely "play your hand for you" by hitting a hand that you might want to stand on. On the contrary, they often "pass you by" by playing your hand for you by standing on a hand that, in fact, you might want to hit (case in point, above).

    I am suggesting that you avoid such situations by ALWAYS giving a signal and by never permitting the dealer to simply pass you buy without your stand signal. That way, you are less likely to have her do what she did to you. Because, as Prof fails to realize, there are two sides to the story: it's great with 16 v. 10 when you get the deuce, but when it's 15 v. 7 and she passes you by, you do NOT have the right to the 6. They won't back up the cards.

    I respect your opinion, Prof, but I'll continue to do it my way. I don't EVER let the dealer play my hand for me -- ever. And the first time he/she does it, I politely tell him/her, "please don't make my decisions for me or assume what I'm going to do." They never do it again.

    Don

  4. #14
    Robert V. Lux
    Guest

    Robert V. Lux: You need to be consistent

    > I am not quite sure what you mean by
    > "Never let a dealer play your
    > hand."

    > A dealer who is playing your hand for you is
    > an advantage situation. You will get at
    > least 1 "second chance" play. That
    > is, there will be one time when she gives
    > you a card you didn't want, and you can
    > "Send it back".

    Though, consider this: You will only be able to take advantage of such situations once, or at maximum a very few times, each session. If you point out that you "didn't want the card", the dealer will be more carefully when serving your future hands, and will not play the hand for you.

    Also, you need to be consistent. You cannot accept a numerous number of "unwanted cards", and then insist on having non-favoring cards sent back.

    Besides, as a counter, you want to be invisible. You need to camouflage yourself. No attention is good attention. Action as proposed above, to let the unwanted cards increase your advantage, will not only increase your hourly win rate (though, at a very low rate), but also alert the casino staff. As I said: "No attention is good attention."

    > Suppose you have a 16 v 10 that you are
    > going to stand on. Dealer gives you a 2
    > before you waive off. Do you take the card,
    > or do you say "don't play my hand for
    > me." I hope it is clear that keeping
    > the card is better mathematically. Of
    > course, if you break, then you should
    > definitely point out that you didn't want
    > the card.

    As I stated above; If you've accepted, i.e. 7 unwanted cards, and finally refuse to accept it when it's not in your favour, the casino personell will smell a rat. The dealer won't forget the 7 hands, which you accepted.

    Best regards, Robert V. Lux

  5. #15
    MathProf
    Guest

    MathProf: Analysis of 15 v 7

    Let us analyze the 15 v 7 case. First, from Cac's EV tables we that the Evs are approximately -0.48 for Stand and -0.37 for Hit. Now consider two alternative scenarios.

    Scenario A, we play the hand straight. We have a negative EV of -0.37.

    Scenario B is against a dealer who does not wait for our signal, and hits the next player. If the next card is 2,3,4,5,6, we immediately complain and we get to pull out of the hand. So have a push. If the next card is anything else, we stand on our 15, with a conditional EV of -0.48 This happens about 8/13 of the time. So our total EV under this scenario is (5/13)*0 + 8/13*(-.48) = -.27 This is better than playing it straight!

    So you see even here, we are better off with the impatient dealer who doesn't wait for a signal.

    > Your point provides the answer that I was
    > prepared to give to MathProf.

    > Dealers rarely "play your hand for
    > you" by hitting a hand that you might
    > want to stand on. On the contrary, they
    > often "pass you by" by playing
    > your hand for you by standing on a hand
    > that, in fact, you might want to hit (case
    > in point, above).

    > I am suggesting that you avoid such
    > situations by ALWAYS giving a signal and by
    > never permitting the dealer to simply pass
    > you buy without your stand signal. That way,
    > you are less likely to have her do what she
    > did to you. Because, as Prof fails to
    > realize, there are two sides to the story:
    > it's great with 16 v. 10 when you get the
    > deuce, but when it's 15 v. 7 and she passes
    > you by, you do NOT have the right to the 6.
    > They won't back up the cards.

    > I respect your opinion, Prof, but I'll
    > continue to do it my way. I don't EVER let
    > the dealer play my hand for me -- ever. And
    > the first time he/she does it, I politely
    > tell him/her, "please don't make my
    > decisions for me or assume what I'm going to
    > do." They never do it again.

    > Don

  6. #16
    HOLLYWOOD
    Guest

    HOLLYWOOD: Re: What I would do

    > This Happens

    > This type of thing does happen. Dealers are
    > under pressure to make hands per hour. If
    > they know you are a BS player, or an
    > approximation, they will sometimes not wait
    > for a signal from you.

    > There are players who attempt to pull
    > various scams in this situation. We see a
    > lot of them in Detroit. Since the casinos
    > are relatively new, they push the envelope
    > against what they see inexperienced
    > personnel. The casinos know that these are
    > scams, and this type of behavior will draw
    > more heat than counting.

    > Now let us the specifics of your situation.
    > If I understand correctly, the RC was +6
    > after the 99 vs. 6 had appeared. Does this
    > mean 2 above pivot? I am not an expert on KO
    > indices, but that strikes me a weak double.
    > This is a lot of gain to be made doubling A9
    > at counts that are very high, but this is
    > probably marginal. With a big bet, the
    > Certainty Equivalent may even be negative
    > (in other words, the RA-index may be
    > higher.)

    > In my opinion, doubling A9 is a very High
    > profile play. Up there with splitting 10s.
    > For cover reasons, this is a play that I
    > avoid. I certainly not do it in a marginal
    > situation. In addition to everything else,
    > you are also eating an additional card in a
    > high count situation.

    > Once the 10 came out, your RC is even lower,
    > and the play is more marginal. Now if you
    > protest here, I do not think that they will
    > give you the 10! They may want to burn the
    > 10. This would be a disaster, and something
    > to avoid. If the dealers hole card is not
    > exposed, they will probably allow to take
    > the next card for you double-down.

    > However, this is going to draw a lot of
    > attention to your play! No matter what
    > happens, the game will slow to a crawl
    > because the dealer will wait for VERY clear,
    > and obvious signals from you. The boss is
    > likely to stand right there to make sure
    > that this does not happen again. Plus, you
    > have announced that double on 20! They may
    > figure you are a card-counter, or a cheater
    > who is trying to advantage of the house, or
    > a counter who cheats, which is the worst
    > possible image to have.

    > In your case, I would have not protested
    > this particular play. If it was a different
    > play, I would do otherwise. If it were 16v10
    > and the dealer hit me and busted the hand, I
    > would have said "I don't want that
    > card." and forced them to take it back.

    In KO, using 6 decks.
    +4 is the pivot.
    It's where almost all of your indices kick in.

    Except for insurance which is +3 and 16 vs 10 is -4.
    Bet increases begin at -4 using KO system.

    Regards,

    Hollywood

  7. #17
    Don Schlesinger
    Guest

    Don Schlesinger: Re: Analysis of 15 v 7

    > So you see even here, we are better off with
    > the impatient dealer who doesn't wait for a
    > signal.

    Hindsight is wonderful. If you're able to know all of this, in a split second, while seated at the table, I applaud you. Personally, I'm not able to do that, so I'll stick to playing my own hands all of the time! :-)

    Don

  8. #18
    Cyrus
    Guest

    Cyrus: He should protest

    "This is going to draw a lot of attention to your play!"

    Yes, but a big bet is a big bet. He should protect it, all things considered.

    "No matter what happens, the game will slow to a crawl because the dealer will wait for VERY clear, and obvious signals from you."

    If he chooses to stick around and play on, then that is obviously something to consider. But it shouldn't be too tough to navigate the dealer quickly and efficiently. Unless the dealer starts doing it on purpose, the game should not necessarily "slow to a crawl".

    "You have announced that double on 20! They may figure you are a card-counter, or a cheater who is trying to advantage of the house, or a counter who cheats, which is the worst possible image to have."

    ..Or maybe a player who sees the deal going against him and decides to take advantage of the dealer slipping (or sleeping) on the job. I've seen non-advantage players calling for more blatant plays than doubling on A9! How about splitting a low pair against an Ace, will that do? "Why, you should have asked me, m'am, I'm the last player, how do you know I'm not splitting those 4's??"

    The dealer is supposed to pay a little closer attention to the last player to act, before dealing to his own hand, that's all there is to it. (The above doesn't mean that the player will get away with the ruse, or that they will not burn the card that was dealt. But, in my mind, there's no way the player shouldn't protest.)

    --Cyrus

  9. #19
    Cardkountr
    Guest

    Cardkountr: Re: I'm really annoyed by this

    > and it's not the first time it happened.

    > I'm sitting at a table and i'm getting
    > beaten up pretty bad. Just waiting for my
    > turn. Finally the count goes my way and I
    > start my bet escalation. I was flat betting
    > $100.00 and i'm now up to $500.00. The
    > dealer gives me a pair of 9's against her 6.
    > Using KO, the count is plus 6. I split the
    > 9's and get an ace on the first one for a
    > total of 20. With a count that high I wanted
    > to double on that.
    > The dealer never gave me a chance to give a
    > hand signal. Without hesitation she hit the
    > 2nd 9 with a 10. So i'm sitting with a 20
    > and 19 the dealer pulls 21 and the rest is
    > history. A $3000.00 swing. (if i'm allowed
    > to double)

    > I was really upset and didn't feel I could
    > do anything about it.

    > WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?

    > Hollywood

    I can appreciate your frustration. Since you are a regular player in the pit where the eye is most always watching and the pit critters have little else to do but observe the game, I wouldn't have called attention to the play.

    If you had stopped her after receiving the 10 but before she completed her hand, they would not have backed up the card for your double anyway. Generally they would either burn that card and give you the next card for the double or given you the option to back out of the hand, which you wouldn't do since you had a soft 20.

    If you could have gotten your chips out there to double the A9 before the dealer passed it by and hit your split 9 is one thing, but to complain about it after the dealer has completed her hand with a 21 would have caused the pit critter and possibly the pit boss to intervene. Then the question in their mind becomes why you wanted to double, especially if you are not known to have done that in the past.

    I don't see anything to be gained by saying anything as it could cause them to watch you more closely and potentially affect your longevity in that club. And with only 13 clubs in AC most of them owned by only 3 corporations, you don't have much "wiggle" room once you're identified as a counter.

    The best that you can do is chaulk it up to experience and in the future always be ready to quickly double by having your chips in your hand.

    Just one opinion.

    May all the dealers blackjacks occur while you're in the bathroom!!

    Card.

  10. #20
    Cyrus
    Guest

    Cyrus: This is not the point!

    Your analysis does not address the issue of "implied (negative) odds" down the road, when she will pass you by when you wanna make an unusual, big-bet play. When you have the opportunity to split tens or double soft 19 and she passes you by, it's gonna hurt.

    I already pointed this out in my post titled "An important qualifier".

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