HOLLYWOOD: I'm really annoyed by this

[HOLLYWOOD]

and it's not the first time it happened.

I'm sitting at a table and i'm getting beaten up pretty bad. Just waiting for my turn. Finally the count goes my way and I start my bet escalation. I was flat betting $100.00 and i'm now up to $500.00. The dealer gives me a pair of 9's against her 6. Using KO, the count is plus 6. I split the 9's and get an ace on the first one for a total of 20. With a count that high I wanted to double on that.
The dealer never gave me a chance to give a hand signal. Without hesitation she hit the 2nd 9 with a 10. So i'm sitting with a 20 and 19 the dealer pulls 21 and the rest is history. A $3000.00 swing. (if i'm allowed to double)

I was really upset and didn't feel I could do anything about it.

WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?

Hollywood

[Bettie]

> WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?

In the past, I have yelled (well, not yelled, but calmly said VERY loudly) "Stop! I wasn't done!" and immediately called the pit boss over to complain. In your situation, the pit boss is definitely going to wonder why you're doubling a 20 against a 6, but your losses give you the excuse that you were losing so badly, you wanted to take every available chance to put money on the table to try to win it back. He might think it's weird, but he'll probably just think that you're a hothead chasing your losses.

Because I'm a cordial player and always spend time joking with the bosses, it usually works in my favor. The boss will have the dealer redeal, rearrange the cards, whatever, in order to accommodate me. Not just because I'm a woman, either, as I've seen this work with male players, too - as long as the boss likes you. They don't want to upset players who spend money (and lose), and they don't want the downtime that the stopped table has.

At any rate, I ALWAYS stop the dealer immediately and call the pit boss over.

Bettie

[Pro Player]

in this sicheation have the chips ready and shovem out there before dealer hits your other nine

[Cyrus]

There's no way you should leave that stand, having that big a bet in jeopardy. You should call over the supervisor and try and get your appeal heard. (Don't worry about the dealer's goodwill from that point on, even if you had cultivated a good relationship with him, for some reason. Now is the time to cash out that goodwill, for better or worse.)

There are players who will intentionally leave their intentions vague in instances such as the one you describe, with obvious intent. But, in these elevated environs, I'm not going as far as recommending such techniques. I would only suggest that, had the hand turned the other way, you would have been correct to have followed a different standard and kept mum.

--Cyrus

[ET Fan]

There is simply no excuse for the behavior of this dealer! But if you didn't protest, preferably before the dealer played her own hand, then you have no one to blame but yourself.

Doubling A9 v 6 isn't that unusual a play, even for a ploppie. Dealer must wait for a signal. Now a really well trained pit boss is NEVER going to allow cards to be backed up, IMO, unless he decides you are a big loser on the hook, nor would he ever allow changes after dealer's total is determined (except for correcting mistakes). So the right time to protest is right when the mistake happens.

I don't know enough about KO to know whether you still wanted to double after the ten appeared on your second nine. Either way, I would still have made a fuss, if only to get the dealer in the habit of waiting for my signals. If the dealer won't do that, and the pit backs her up, then I would never play in that casino again. And I'd warn all my friends to stay FAR FAR AWAY.

ETF

[MathProf]

This Happens

This type of thing does happen. Dealers are under pressure to make hands per hour. If they know you are a BS player, or an approximation, they will sometimes not wait for a signal from you.

There are players who attempt to pull various scams in this situation. We see a lot of them in Detroit. Since the casinos are relatively new, they push the envelope against what they see inexperienced personnel. The casinos know that these are scams, and this type of behavior will draw more heat than counting.

Now let us the specifics of your situation. If I understand correctly, the RC was +6 after the 99 vs. 6 had appeared. Does this mean 2 above pivot? I am not an expert on KO indices, but that strikes me a weak double. This is a lot of gain to be made doubling A9 at counts that are very high, but this is probably marginal. With a big bet, the Certainty Equivalent may even be negative (in other words, the RA-index may be higher.)

In my opinion, doubling A9 is a very High profile play. Up there with splitting 10s. For cover reasons, this is a play that I avoid. I certainly not do it in a marginal situation. In addition to everything else, you are also eating an additional card in a high count situation.

Once the 10 came out, your RC is even lower, and the play is more marginal. Now if you protest here, I do not think that they will give you the 10! They may want to burn the 10. This would be a disaster, and something to avoid. If the dealers hole card is not exposed, they will probably allow to take the next card for you double-down.

However, this is going to draw a lot of attention to your play! No matter what happens, the game will slow to a crawl because the dealer will wait for VERY clear, and obvious signals from you. The boss is likely to stand right there to make sure that this does not happen again. Plus, you have announced that double on 20! They may figure you are a card-counter, or a cheater who is trying to advantage of the house, or a counter who cheats, which is the worst possible image to have.

In your case, I would have not protested this particular play. If it was a different play, I would do otherwise. If it were 16v10 and the dealer hit me and busted the hand, I would have said "I don't want that card." and forced them to take it back.

> and it's not the first time it happened.

> I'm sitting at a table and i'm getting
> beaten up pretty bad. Just waiting for my
> turn. Finally the count goes my way and I
> start my bet escalation. I was flat betting
> $100.00 and i'm now up to $500.00. The
> dealer gives me a pair of 9's against her 6.
> Using KO, the count is plus 6. I split the
> 9's and get an ace on the first one for a
> total of 20. With a count that high I wanted
> to double on that.
> The dealer never gave me a chance to give a
> hand signal. Without hesitation she hit the
> 2nd 9 with a 10. So i'm sitting with a 20
> and 19 the dealer pulls 21 and the rest is
> history. A $3000.00 swing. (if i'm allowed
> to double)

> I was really upset and didn't feel I could
> do anything about it.

> WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?

> Hollywood

[williwong21]

You're to blame.Whenever I play at high counts I'm always ready for those plays and say stop immediately.You don't have time to put out more chips.However when I'm to slow I certainly don't complain after the dealer draws to 21.Put it behind you and move on.Willi.

[HOLLYWOOD]

> This Happens

> This type of thing does happen. Dealers are
> under pressure to make hands per hour. If
> they know you are a BS player, or an
> approximation, they will sometimes not wait
> for a signal from you.

> There are players who attempt to pull
> various scams in this situation. We see a
> lot of them in Detroit. Since the casinos
> are relatively new, they push the envelope
> against what they see inexperienced
> personnel. The casinos know that these are
> scams, and this type of behavior will draw
> more heat than counting.

> Now let us the specifics of your situation.
> If I understand correctly, the RC was +6
> after the 99 vs. 6 had appeared. Does this
> mean 2 above pivot? I am not an expert on KO
> indices, but that strikes me a weak double.
> This is a lot of gain to be made doubling A9
> at counts that are very high, but this is
> probably marginal. With a big bet, the
> Certainty Equivalent may even be negative
> (in other words, the RA-index may be
> higher.)

> In my opinion, doubling A9 is a very High
> profile play. Up there with splitting 10s.
> For cover reasons, this is a play that I
> avoid. I certainly not do it in a marginal
> situation. In addition to everything else,
> you are also eating an additional card in a
> high count situation.

> Once the 10 came out, your RC is even lower,
> and the play is more marginal. Now if you
> protest here, I do not think that they will
> give you the 10! They may want to burn the
> 10. This would be a disaster, and something
> to avoid. If the dealers hole card is not
> exposed, they will probably allow to take
> the next card for you double-down.

> However, this is going to draw a lot of
> attention to your play! No matter what
> happens, the game will slow to a crawl
> because the dealer will wait for VERY clear,
> and obvious signals from you. The boss is
> likely to stand right there to make sure
> that this does not happen again. Plus, you
> have announced that double on 20! They may
> figure you are a card-counter, or a cheater
> who is trying to advantage of the house, or
> a counter who cheats, which is the worst
> possible image to have.

> In your case, I would have not protested
> this particular play. If it was a different
> play, I would do otherwise. If it were 16v10
> and the dealer hit me and busted the hand, I
> would have said "I don't want that
> card." and forced them to take it back.

In KO, using 6 decks.
+4 is the pivot.
It's where almost all of your indices kick in.

Except for insurance which is +3 and 16 vs 10 is -4.
Bet increases begin at -4 using KO system.

Regards,

Hollywood

[Cyrus]

"This is going to draw a lot of attention to your play!"

Yes, but a big bet is a big bet. He should protect it, all things considered.

"No matter what happens, the game will slow to a crawl because the dealer will wait for VERY clear, and obvious signals from you."

If he chooses to stick around and play on, then that is obviously something to consider. But it shouldn't be too tough to navigate the dealer quickly and efficiently. Unless the dealer starts doing it on purpose, the game should not necessarily "slow to a crawl".

"You have announced that double on 20! They may figure you are a card-counter, or a cheater who is trying to advantage of the house, or a counter who cheats, which is the worst possible image to have."

..Or maybe a player who sees the deal going against him and decides to take advantage of the dealer slipping (or sleeping) on the job. I've seen non-advantage players calling for more blatant plays than doubling on A9! How about splitting a low pair against an Ace, will that do? "Why, you should have asked me, m'am, I'm the last player, how do you know I'm not splitting those 4's??"

The dealer is supposed to pay a little closer attention to the last player to act, before dealing to his own hand, that's all there is to it. (The above doesn't mean that the player will get away with the ruse, or that they will not burn the card that was dealt. But, in my mind, there's no way the player shouldn't protest.)

--Cyrus

[MathProf]

> Yes, but a
> big bet is a big bet. He should protect it,
> all things considered.


> The dealer is supposed to pay a little
> closer attention to the last player to act,
> before dealing to his own hand, that's all
> there is to it. (The above doesn't mean that
> the player will get away with the ruse, or
> that they will not burn the card that was
> dealt. But, in my mind, there's no way the
> player shouldn't protest.)

> --Cyrus


I think you are trying to disagree with my post, where I said:

In your case, I would have not protested this particular play. If it was a different play, I would do otherwise. If it were 16v10 and the dealer hit me and busted the hand, I would have said "I don't want that card." and forced them to take it back.

My policy was to protest if it will save real money, but not to cause trouble for the sake of causing trouble. But you disagree with this? Would you protest if the play only saved a penny? Or if it saved it a dollar? Or would protest just our of principle. Your comment about the "big bet" leads me to believe that the cost of the misplay is a factor in your decision.

Now I pointed out that this was a marginal play. I even questioned whether there was any gain in the play at all, if we were not below the index. No one seems to even addressed that point.

So I decided to look into it. Here is the data which I computed for doubling A9 v 5, at various KO counts. 0 is the Pivot point. This is pre-formatted, but the last time I did this here, it didn't quite come out right)

 

 RC        N     Gain    SE-Gain      DeltaVar   CritFrct   

 0.0    158.0  -0.0389   0.00439        2.82     -0.028 

 1.0    155.0  -0.0189   0.00415        2.82     -0.013 

 2.0    136.0   0.0095   0.00425        2.82      0.007 

 3.0     90.0   0.0384   0.00595        2.82      0.027 

My data shows that the index is +2, and that the gain there is only 1%. After the Ace comes out, we are at +1, and my data show that this double is an incorrect play which costs us money. After the 10 comes out, the double costs almost 4%. This is 4% of a big bet, which is a non-trivial loss.

A disclaimer should be made here. I checked with SBA, to see what index it. It seems to have an index of +1. I am not sure why the discrepancy, although a difference like this is not unusual. But note that we do agree that pivot (after the 10 was removed) the play is negative.

Now for this marginal play, you want to him protest. Should he ask for a tape review? What is they say they want to review the tapes, to see if he gave the signal. This is not the usual procedure, but I have it seen it done. I once saw a casino withhold correcting a $50 payoff error until after the tape was backed up.

So the sky backs up the tape. They see all these low cards come out, his bets jump up, and then he tries to double A9. Just the kind of publicity we are looking for.

But maybe he will get lucky. Maybe they look at the tape, think he might be counting, and then do a more thorough review. Maybe they have really sophisticated software, and it will conclude that his A( double was premature, and therefore a "sucker" play.

I don't know if this is the strategy that you are aiming for. It seems a bit too cute for me.

[Cyrus]

"Now I pointed out that [doubling A9v5] was a marginal play. I even questioned whether there was any gain in the play at all, if we were not below the index. No one seems to even addressed that point."

No, and I want to thank you for addressing it yourself so analytically, in any case.

But the point is not that hand, as I tried to make clear from the get-go! It's the big-bet plays down the road, where the hurried dealer may bypass you. And, oh yes, I must've made penny-foolish plays in my life to drive home a point to the dealer, only to assure that I'd be pound wise.

Would you analyze the missed gain of standing on TTv6 instead of splitting 'em? (Should you even care to?)

[Don Schlesinger]

You've gotten excellent advice from all the posters.

Bottom line: NEVER allow the dealer to play your hand for you. Give a signal EVERY time, no matter what your total is. If you ever, once, permit the dealer to just pass you by, because you have two tens and he has a four showing, then it's your fault. Give the signal EVERY time!

Then, when he passes you, you jump all over him, and say, "I didn't give you a signal; please DO NOT play my hand for me."

And, you never just sit there and watch the scenario play out. You stop the play before it's too late.

Every time I have A,7 v. 9->Ace, I inch my hand out closer to the cards, to be ready to give the hit signal, the moment the dealer reaches my hand.

Don

[MathProf]

I am not quite sure what you mean by "Never let a dealer play your hand."

A dealer who is playing your hand for you is an advantage situation. You will get at least 1 "second chance" play. That is, there will be one time when she gives you a card you didn't want, and you can "Send it back".

Suppose you have a 16 v 10 that you are going to stand on. Dealer gives you a 2 before you waive off. Do you take the card, or do you say "don't play my hand for me." I hope it is clear that keeping the card is better mathematically. Of course, if you break, then you should definitely point out that you didn't want the card.

Now personally, I don't lie. If I have a 15 v 6 and the dealer passes me without signal and the next card is a 5, I don't say "I wanted to hit." If I had 12 v 7 and a paint card came out before I asked for it, I wouldn't say "I was going to stand." But I will correct an error that favors the house.

Now after you insist on the dealer waiting for a signal, you have taken away this advantage. My point is that shouldn't do that for a marginal gain.

I always give a signal. I agree with that. If I have a double/split coming, I get my chips ready it is my turn. But if a dealer is too impatient to wait for the signal, then I don't have a problem exploiting the situation.

> You've gotten excellent advice from all the
> posters.

> Bottom line: NEVER allow the dealer to play
> your hand for you. Give a signal EVERY time,
> no matter what your total is. If you ever,
> once, permit the dealer to just pass you by,
> because you have two tens and he has a four
> showing, then it's your fault. Give the
> signal EVERY time!

> Then, when he passes you, you jump all over
> him, and say, "I didn't give you a
> signal; please DO NOT play my hand for
> me."

> And, you never just sit there and watch the
> scenario play out. You stop the play before
> it's too late.

> Every time I have A,7 v. 9->Ace, I inch
> my hand out closer to the cards, to be ready
> to give the hit signal, the moment the
> dealer reaches my hand.

> Don