Domain Chat: Lance Humble
Don's Domain Chat
Johnny Chang
Johnny Chang, legendary member of the MIT blackjack team, and subject of the best seller Burning Down the House

November 14, 2004

11/14/04 20:48:22
Viktor Logs in
11/14/04 20:57:30
sfgiants Logs in
11/14/04 20:57:40
sfgiants: Good evening Viktor
11/14/04 20:57:40
Viktor: Hey sfgiants
11/14/04 20:57:58
sfgiants: How are you coming along with the Tourney skills?
11/14/04 20:58:10
sfgiants: I have my first tourney in two weeks
11/14/04 20:58:30
Viktor: Great. The WSoB 2 finished filming last night. I did RGE and proud.
11/14/04 20:58:54
sfgiants: GREAT!
11/14/04 20:59:12
sfgiants: I noticed WSoB isn't on TV. When is it coming back?
11/14/04 20:59:24
Viktor: The new season starts in January.
11/14/04 20:59:37
sfgiants: Did you use progression betting or did you min/max versus BR*?
11/14/04 21:01:01
Viktor: Progressions don't work great for the WSoB.
11/14/04 21:01:26
Viktor: So it was mostly bet corrolation to become BR*, or to protect my lead.
11/14/04 21:01:26
sfgiants: great, which seat did you have?
11/14/04 21:01:40
Viktor: Can't say. My contract says to zip the lips.
11/14/04 21:02:02
sfgiants: ok. I got Blackjack for Blood, does the author ever visit your site?
11/14/04 21:03:19
Viktor: I don't recall him ever visiting any site before, and our emails to him are bouncing now.
11/14/04 21:03:28
sfgiants: ok
11/14/04 21:03:53
sfgiants: What was your BEST resource for getting ready for the tourney?
11/14/04 21:03:59
dp Logs in
11/14/04 21:04:02
DonS Logs in
11/14/04 21:04:04
sfgiants: I would love to play in the WSoB in a couple of years
11/14/04 21:04:06
Viktor: Playing. Playing. Playing.
11/14/04 21:04:20
sfgiants: ok, I'm using Casino Verite and it helps
11/14/04 21:04:34
sfgiants: along with some Ken Smith info and Stanford Wongs stuff
11/14/04 21:04:40
dp Logs Out
11/14/04 21:04:41
Viktor: Wongs book is largely irrelevent to playing at tables with more than a couple skilled players.
11/14/04 21:04:51
sfgiants: That what I thought
11/14/04 21:04:54
disadvplyr Logs in
11/14/04 21:05:02
sfgiants: 90% of the time he says to bet the max versus BR1 and BR2
11/14/04 21:05:20
sfgiants: Good evening DonS and disadvplyr
11/14/04 21:05:20
Viktor: Hey DonS!
11/14/04 21:05:27
disadvplyr: evening all
11/14/04 21:05:35
sfgiants: Should be a boring night here ;-)
11/14/04 21:05:43
disadvplyr: i wanted to ask a quick ? before johnny joins us
11/14/04 21:05:45
Matt Logs in
11/14/04 21:05:57
Matt: hello
11/14/04 21:06:04
Viktor: Hey Matt.
11/14/04 21:06:13
Matt: hi viktor
11/14/04 21:06:33
disadvplyr: how is it that some known APlayers can play in the wsob and ever play in anopther casino again after being photographed and broadcxast?
11/14/04 21:06:49
Matt: Viktor, I was reading about the tourney... when is it again?
11/14/04 21:07:07
megapossum Logs in
11/14/04 21:07:29
Viktor: disadvplyr I don't know. Wong plays fine. I'll probably end up with a wanted poster.
11/14/04 21:07:35
disadvplyr: haha
11/14/04 21:07:39
Viktor: Hey megapossum!
11/14/04 21:07:44
disadvplyr: that always confused me
11/14/04 21:08:02
megapossum: hello all
11/14/04 21:08:03
Viktor: Yeah, even Don has waxed about that one.
11/14/04 21:08:13
disadvplyr: it seems kind of nuts how much work i put into cover play and here you guys are, on tv...
11/14/04 21:08:35
Ouchez Logs in
11/14/04 21:08:53
Matt: when is it to be on tv?
11/14/04 21:09:11
sfgiants: January
11/14/04 21:09:29
Matt: does it take place in Jan?
11/14/04 21:09:41
Matt: or broadcast in Jan?
11/14/04 21:09:47
josey_wailes Logs in
11/14/04 21:10:49
sfgiants: broadcast in jan
11/14/04 21:10:59
Matt: ok
11/14/04 21:11:49
Parker Logs in
11/14/04 21:12:02
Viktor: It broadcasts in January, although we won't know for a while what order the episodes will air.
11/14/04 21:12:26
sfgiants: So, the Golden Nugget will start have BJ Tourneys?
11/14/04 21:13:18
Viktor: Good question. Don't know.
11/14/04 21:13:47
sfgiants: I read this somewhere.
11/14/04 21:14:01
sfgiants: Good evening Mr. KO Parker
11/14/04 21:14:12
sfgiants: How is the book coming along?
11/14/04 21:14:17
Parker: Hello everyone
11/14/04 21:14:36
Parker: The book is coming along in fits and spurts
11/14/04 21:14:44
Viktor: Oy. Well, Johnny wouldn't be the first person to forget to show up for their chat.
11/14/04 21:14:57
Cardkountr Logs in
11/14/04 21:15:10
Cardkountr: Hi Everyone!
11/14/04 21:15:20
Parker: Maybe he's just being fashionably late.
11/14/04 21:16:48
Viktor: Our guest of honor is on his way.
11/14/04 21:16:52
Cardkountr: Johnny is on my buddy list ........he's not signed online tonight unless he's on a different screen name
11/14/04 21:17:06
Viktor: He's running late.
11/14/04 21:17:33
Cardkountr: Hi Hollywood
11/14/04 21:17:57
sfgiants: Is this Hollywood Dave?
11/14/04 21:18:06
DonS: No.
11/14/04 21:18:08
Viktor: Nope, this our Hollywood.
11/14/04 21:18:13
sfgiants: Great!
11/14/04 21:18:19
Viktor: Hollywood Dave will be doing a guest chat soon.
11/14/04 21:18:25
Viktor: We're having lunch tomorrow.
11/14/04 21:18:39
sfgiants: Hollywood Dave has it made on that Celeb show
11/14/04 21:19:02
sfgiants: kissing, flirting, doesn't get any better playing BJ
11/14/04 21:19:20
Viktor: Last night was the wrap party for WSoB, so in addition to a room full of drunk blackjack celebs, I managed to fold MIT Mike into the back of my car and take him to the Palms for the VIP treatement. MIT Mike is not a small guy.
11/14/04 21:19:48
disadvplyr: haha
11/14/04 21:19:51
JohnnyC Logs in
11/14/04 21:19:57
Viktor: There he is!
11/14/04 21:20:05
JohnnyC: Hi guys, sorry for being late.
11/14/04 21:20:06
sfgiants: start recoding Viktor
11/14/04 21:20:09
Viktor: Thanks for coming tonight, Johnny.
11/14/04 21:20:12
Parker: Welcome, Johnny
11/14/04 21:20:20
Cardkountr: Hi Johnny
11/14/04 21:20:28
Matt: Hi JC
11/14/04 21:20:41
JohnnyC: Thanks, everyone... so, any topics anyone would like to address?
11/14/04 21:20:46
megapossum: Hi,Johnny
11/14/04 21:21:10
DonS: On behalf of everyone here at Don's Domain, I'd like to officially welcome Johnny and thank him for hosting tonight. Hope you will all enjoy.
11/14/04 21:22:06
Viktor: JohhnyC Tell us your current thoughts on the upcoming movie? And legal plans?
11/14/04 21:22:13
JohnnyC: movie... ah, yes
11/14/04 21:22:22
sfgiants: Johnny-How long were you playing blackjack until you started to count?
11/14/04 21:22:43
JohnnyC: I don't know a whole lot about it really, but supposedly Kevin Spacey is going to play the character Micky Rosa, which is based on me.
11/14/04 21:23:05
JohnnyC: I never played blackjack before I started to count
11/14/04 21:23:39
JohnnyC: When I called Spacey to propose a way to train him and get him involved in a play, the agent's secretary gave me the runaround.
11/14/04 21:23:40
milon Logs in
11/14/04 21:23:50
JohnnyC: It's my understanding that MGM really doesn't want to speak with me.
11/14/04 21:24:02
JohnnyC: (MGM is producing the movie)
11/14/04 21:24:11
NightTrain Logs in
11/14/04 21:24:21
DonS: Then who will be the technical consultant?
11/14/04 21:24:39
JohnnyC: I've been speaking with an MIT alum, the author of the first thesis on blackjack (1969) who also happens to be an intellectual property lawyer
11/14/04 21:24:47
Viktor: Perhaps they're afraid that if they acknowledge your persona that they will open themselves up to a lawsuit.
11/14/04 21:24:55
Cardkountr: Johnny, who owned the book rights and sold them to MGM for the movie?
11/14/04 21:24:59
JohnnyC: He's looking into what legal rights I may have as the character
11/14/04 21:25:06
JohnnyC: I presume the author, Ben Mezrich
11/14/04 21:25:17
DonS: Figures. Knows squat about BJ.
11/14/04 21:25:40
Cardkountr: seems like you're being screwed
11/14/04 21:25:43
JohnnyC: Technical consultant? No idea. I spoke with Max Rubin during the filming of the World Series of Blackjack and he said that he was trying to land that role
11/14/04 21:26:23
Parker: Max seems to have his hand in just about everything 8)
11/14/04 21:26:40
Matt: Johnny, I have "The Hot Shoe" documentary... is that you, and what did you think of it?
11/14/04 21:27:16
JohnnyC: It's not my style but if hardball is the only style that works, i guess I'm forced into it.
11/14/04 21:27:43
JohnnyC: "The Hot Shoe" — David Layton filmed Andy Bloch, Richard Chen, and I in Las Vegas one New Year's about 5 years back
11/14/04 21:28:14
JohnnyC: So, yes it's me. I actually haven't seen it.
11/14/04 21:29:04
Matt: cool, thanks... I enjoyed the plays in the doc
11/14/04 21:29:17
JohnnyC: Hmm, I have no idea what they were at this point
11/14/04 21:29:57
JohnnyC: I mean, 5 or so years ago, why would I remember some play?
11/14/04 21:30:39
JohnnyC: Viktor and I were playing in the World Series of BJ 2 this past weekend. Quite interesting
11/14/04 21:30:55
JohnnyC: Viktor, what happened to you in the semis?
11/14/04 21:31:03
Viktor: Can't say.
11/14/04 21:31:18
JohnnyC: Oh yeah, sorry about that
11/14/04 21:31:31
Viktor: I don't want to ruin it for people, plus I want to honor our contracts.
11/14/04 21:31:54
Viktor: But I think people will love watching you action. You were great.
11/14/04 21:32:08
JohnnyC: Don, did you get a chance to work on the kelly betting for an income stream?
11/14/04 21:32:22
DonS: No, sorry. Not yet.
11/14/04 21:32:54
JohnnyC: Would it be a violation to talk about a specific hand or two?
11/14/04 21:33:24
JohnnyC: Why do you say I was great Viktor?
11/14/04 21:33:50
JohnnyC: You were no slouch yourself, as you are very well aware.
11/14/04 21:33:56
Viktor: I think everyone played very well, and we all made similiar mistakes due to the volume of chips.
11/14/04 21:34:19
Viktor: By all means, just try not to give-away the ending.
11/14/04 21:34:44
JohnnyC: I signed this 7 page contract but I don't really remember what I agreed to.
11/14/04 21:35:12
Viktor: I doubt they would sue us, but I think it's good to preserve the drama.
11/14/04 21:35:22
JohnnyC: Actually, "Wheel of Fortune" is looking for contestants in Las Vegas this week. I wonder whether we'd be eligible.
11/14/04 21:35:24
Parker: The last time I signed a contract without reading it I ended up spending six years in the Navy 8)
11/14/04 21:35:30
NightTrain: good evening folks
11/14/04 21:35:32
Hollywood: Johnny, that was an interesting thing you said earlier, when u mentioned that you never played blackjack before you counted
11/14/04 21:35:34
JohnnyC: Hi rick
11/14/04 21:36:04
Hollywood: I don't think I ever heard anyone start out as a counter before
11/14/04 21:36:05
JohnnyC: The first time I played blackjack was after I had been trained to count
11/14/04 21:36:20
Viktor: ha! Wait till you all see Night Train in action. What a hoot!
11/14/04 21:36:27
Matt: which count did you use?
11/14/04 21:36:32
JohnnyC: hi-low
11/14/04 21:36:38
NightTrain Logs Out
11/14/04 21:36:56
sfgiants: Wow, thats really interesting. For myself, I started playing BJ obviously at 21 and 8 years later, I've taught myself KO
11/14/04 21:36:59
Matt: right. any thoughts about the book, Bringing Down...
11/14/04 21:36:59
Parker: That's it? Just hi-lo?
11/14/04 21:37:08
JohnnyC: Well, Parker, I signed pretty much the same contract last year and it didn't come back to haunt me
11/14/04 21:37:10
Hollywood: There should be a counting college. It cost me over 300 thousand before I learned
11/14/04 21:37:18
JohnnyC: that's it.
11/14/04 21:37:27
JohnnyC: you don't have to be fancy to get the money
11/14/04 21:37:56
JohnnyC: after I started I got into some simple shuffle tracking. that was all I needed to play for quite a while
11/14/04 21:37:56
DonS: Well, once upon a time, there were several BJ schools in existence, mostly in the '80s.
11/14/04 21:37:59
sfgiants: We should all chip in and open our own Casino in Vegas, take those profits (6:5 BJ) and run the tables
11/14/04 21:38:35
JohnnyC: Someone who's a good bj player doesn't necessarily make a good casino manager
11/14/04 21:39:00
JohnnyC: A casino manager has to sweat the details all the time. A player can pick and choose his spots
11/14/04 21:39:29
DonS: How would you treat counters as the casino manager of your own casino?
11/14/04 21:39:33
Parker: So Semyon Dukach is selling Hi-lo for $200?
11/14/04 21:39:38
DonS: I've thought about this over and over.
11/14/04 21:39:59
JohnnyC: It's tough to teach someone well enough to get them to play with an edge.
11/14/04 21:40:22
Parker: True enough — the actual counting is the easy part
11/14/04 21:40:24
JohnnyC: I don't know what Semyon's doing now
11/14/04 21:41:05
Parker: His website touts a counting system "used by the MIT team" for $200
11/14/04 21:41:20
JohnnyC: yeah, not worth it
11/14/04 21:41:37
JohnnyC: buy Don's book and get 5 times the value for 1/4 the price
11/14/04 21:41:39
Hollywood: In my own casino Don, I would do nothing more than cut the cards in half. To me that neutralizes everything
11/14/04 21:42:03
NightTrain Logs in
11/14/04 21:42:20
Cardkountr: that also reduces the house profit too though
11/14/04 21:42:21
JohnnyC: about the only thing that Semyon might have is a few risk-adjusted numbers.
11/14/04 21:42:26
DonS: And soon to be only $24.95 (right, Viktor?) in softcover!
11/14/04 21:42:38
Hollywood: Yes, Card but it sends counters to the door.
11/14/04 21:42:39
JohnnyC: well, then 1/8 the price
11/14/04 21:43:09
Viktor: That's 99% sure. Although the price will probably be $24.99. You kow how I love my four cents!
11/14/04 21:43:35
DonS: Make it $25. Looks more elegant.
11/14/04 21:43:37
JohnnyC: If you think you're going to learn to count in a weekend of training, then you could pick up a law or engineering degree in a week too.
11/14/04 21:43:51
NightTrain: Johnny, when are you going to finally write a book? The stories of your experiences alone make for a great seller.
11/14/04 21:44:17
JohnnyC: I have not considered writing a book before though I suppose it might be interesting
11/14/04 21:44:50
DonS: Well, when you're ready, I know a good publisher!
11/14/04 21:44:57
11/14/04 21:45:01
Cardkountr: Johnny, how did you and the team handle multiple I.D's and disquises?
11/14/04 21:45:11
Viktor: DonS Another penny! I like it! But since this will be the book stores, I would rather stick to a convention they are comfortable with.
11/14/04 21:45:15
JohnnyC: well, I got into legal trouble for that.
11/14/04 21:45:44
Cardkountr: care to share your experience with ID's?
11/14/04 21:46:09
JohnnyC: I was away on a trip for a couple weeks. While I was away, the hose to my washing machine burst and flooded the apartments below me. This was at 2 am on a Tuesday
11/14/04 21:46:36
JohnnyC: The fire department got called. they called the police to break into my place to turn off the water
11/14/04 21:46:53
JohnnyC: after they broke in, they started snooping around and found some fake id's.
11/14/04 21:47:11
disadvplyr: that's horrible!
11/14/04 21:47:13
JohnnyC: I had a felt and chips on my kitchen table
11/14/04 21:47:28
Cardkountr: sounds like an illegal search doesn't it?
11/14/04 21:47:42
Hollywood: Johnny, you have no idea how I relate to this.
11/14/04 21:47:56
Cardkountr: hehehe Hollywood
11/14/04 21:47:58
JohnnyC: When I got back I saw that my door had been broken and thought to myself that I was a few days late on my rent and that the landlord had locked me out!
11/14/04 21:48:09
NightTrain: Today, more than ever, walking around with multiple IDs is risky.
11/14/04 21:48:41
JohnnyC: Sounds like a 4th amendment violation but my lawyer didn't think it was a good idea to challenge it on that basis. Too expensive, for one thing
11/14/04 21:49:13
Cardkountr: what was the outcome? did they charge you with anything?
11/14/04 21:49:33
JohnnyC: 10 felony counts of false i.d.
11/14/04 21:49:50
Hollywood: wow
11/14/04 21:49:55
DonS: I take it these were government-type "official" IDs.
11/14/04 21:49:58
Cardkountr: OMG what was the end result?
11/14/04 21:50:09
Parker: ID laws vary wildly by state
11/14/04 21:50:20
JohnnyC: I forget the legal term — something like no contest but that's not it
11/14/04 21:50:44
Matt: "nolo contendre"?
11/14/04 21:50:55
DonS: nolo contendere
11/14/04 21:51:11
Hollywood: I recently obtained a new license solely for the purpose of getting players cards.
11/14/04 21:51:20
Hollywood: I get stopped for talking on my cell phone and accidently give the cop the wrong license
11/14/04 21:51:45
Hollywood: he goes back in his car and next thing i know, 10 cop cars and guns out
11/14/04 21:51:54
Cardkountr: we can only imagine what the legal costs and lost time/aggravation it caused you
11/14/04 21:51:57
JohnnyC: Oh, yeah — it was "continuation without a finding" basically a year's probation
11/14/04 21:52:02
disadvplyr: jeez! that must have been exciting.
11/14/04 21:52:53
Hollywood: In 2004 its not easy explaining fake drivers lic.
11/14/04 21:53:09
JohnnyC: I've been speaking with Kevin Blackwood recently, and he introduced me to a couple of the Czechs and Chuck Andrulis
11/14/04 21:53:39
JohnnyC: They're players who were well known to the people who trained me
11/14/04 21:54:13
DonS: Famous for their 1980s A.C. play, no?
11/14/04 21:54:19
JohnnyC: It's never been easy to explain fake id
11/14/04 21:54:22
JohnnyC: yes
11/14/04 21:54:36
disadvplyr: its never been easy to GET a fake id. one that works anyways...
11/14/04 21:54:43
DonS: And harder to explain nowadays than ever.
11/14/04 21:55:00
Hollywood: Well, I went with the truth
11/14/04 21:55:00
disadvplyr: mine recently got taken from me at the airport, that was a tough one. on a flight to vegas too.
11/14/04 21:55:16
JohnnyC: it was only taken without other consequence?
11/14/04 21:55:30
DonS: They asked you to empty your pockets?
11/14/04 21:55:44
DonS: A good argument for not carrying the fake ID there.
11/14/04 21:55:59
Cardkountr: has anyone ever explored obtaining a legal DBA name?
11/14/04 21:56:08
disadvplyr: (i got taken into a secondary search, for no reason, everything was examined)
11/14/04 21:56:14
Parker: A friend got stopped at the airport and ended up in a backroom with the FBI
11/14/04 21:56:17
JohnnyC: I got a legal CA ID in an alias name. It got me into trouble one time in Minnesota, where a cop basically owned by the local casino asked me a trick question so he could arrest me.
11/14/04 21:56:34
disadvplyr: that sucks
11/14/04 21:56:45
JohnnyC: Munchkin has done that — changed his name and gotten ID based on that
11/14/04 21:56:49
Hollywood: I can tell you this for certain, if you are not doing it to defraud anyone. You can call yourself anything you want to and have ID in that name.
11/14/04 21:57:01
DonS: Should we know the question for the next time we're in Minnesota?!
11/14/04 21:57:08
Hollywood: Anonmity, is not illegal
11/14/04 21:57:13
JohnnyC: "What is your real name?"
11/14/04 21:57:19
disadvplyr: haha, no way
11/14/04 21:57:45
Matt: Ian Andersen goes into it in his book... seems he has a few
11/14/04 21:57:45
DonS: Yup. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
11/14/04 21:57:53
JohnnyC: I told him the truth and he said "According to the computer your real name is <my alias name>". So I'm arresting you for giving a peace officer a false name.
11/14/04 21:58:31
Hollywood: Giving a cop a fake name is not the same as giving a casino a fake name
11/14/04 21:58:38
Cardkountr: he boxed you in
11/14/04 21:59:11
JohnnyC: it was ridiculous. Andy Bloch, who is a graduate of Harvard Law School, was tricked by the same guy.
11/14/04 21:59:29
DonS: And having an ID in an alias is not illegal if a) it isn't a government-type official ID and b) it isn't being used to commit fraud.
11/14/04 21:59:50
Hollywood: that is correct don
11/14/04 21:59:53
JohnnyC: Andy decided to challenge all kinds of laws but it just cost him a small fortune in legal bills without result
11/14/04 22:00:21
Parker: Ah, but "a" is the kicker - where do you get plausable ID that is not government issued?
11/14/04 22:00:30
[email protected] Logs in
11/14/04 22:00:33
disadvplyr: thats what im wondering
11/14/04 22:00:55
JohnnyC: just search google with "fake id" and you'll find some reputable suppliers
11/14/04 22:00:57
DonS: Parker: You need to visit Times Square next time you're in NY.
11/14/04 22:01:11
JohnnyC: $44 for an organ donor cards
11/14/04 22:01:23
disadvplyr: and those fly with casinos?
11/14/04 22:01:31
Hollywood: The lic they took away from me was almost perfect. But, expensive
11/14/04 22:01:31
DonS: Shhh.
11/14/04 22:01:47
JohnnyC: well, for backup on credit cards or to get player cards, why not?
11/14/04 22:01:47
DonS: So far, so good.
11/14/04 22:02:10
DonS: Exactly. Having a credit card in the same name helps, too.
11/14/04 22:02:18
JohnnyC: in LA you can also visit MacArthur Park.
11/14/04 22:02:32
Hollywood: Getting players cards is very very important.
11/14/04 22:02:34
NightTrain Logs Out
11/14/04 22:02:59
Hollywood: But, credit cards usually involve social security numbers and that changes things
11/14/04 22:02:59
Parker: Finding fake ID's is not the problem. Finding a good one that is not a phoney govt ID is the hard part.
11/14/04 22:03:12
JohnnyC: get a second cc on your real card
11/14/04 22:03:36
DonS: Right. For your "step-son."
11/14/04 22:03:39
Hollywood: Johnny, that's a great concept
11/14/04 22:03:54
Cardkountr: Hollywood, you could add your "cousin" to your credit card and have a card issued in his name
11/14/04 22:03:56
DonS: Different name.
11/14/04 22:03:57
Hollywood: This whole chat was worth it for that alone
11/14/04 22:03:57
JohnnyC: better to just put down a cash deposit
11/14/04 22:04:09
DonS: Right, Card.
11/14/04 22:04:53
Matt: how does the cash deposit work? You mean a "secured" credit card?
11/14/04 22:04:55
DonS: But, when checking in to a hotel, the second form of ID (cc) helps, I think.
11/14/04 22:04:57
Hollywood: Without players cards and good ids, the heat has just been rediculous
11/14/04 22:05:09
Hollywood: yes, matt he means a secured credit card
11/14/04 22:05:18
Cardkountr: actually simply a cash deposit on a CC is not a bad idea in case a casino ever revokes a RFB comp and bills your card
11/14/04 22:05:21
Matt: ah, thanks H
11/14/04 22:05:25
JohnnyC: here's another one — when you are reserving a room, just get it for one night. so you don't have to put down 100x#of nights as a cash deposit. then get the pit to extend the room
11/14/04 22:05:31
DonS: Matt: No, just put up $200 cash when checking in, for incidental expenses.
11/14/04 22:05:49
Matt: ah, ok Don. Thanx
11/14/04 22:06:17
Hollywood: If you give a casino a credit card, do they have a way of checking who the primary cardholder is???
11/14/04 22:06:17
JohnnyC: and when you put up the cash, write all your tips against it so if your comp is revoked you minimize what you lose
11/14/04 22:06:40
Cardkountr: good idea Johnny
11/14/04 22:06:48
Hollywood: Johnny, you're my kind of guy
11/14/04 22:06:55
Parker: Hollywood: no
11/14/04 22:07:15
Hollywood: parker no to my last question?
11/14/04 22:07:20
DonS: Right.
11/14/04 22:07:27
Hollywood: thank you
11/14/04 22:07:34
[email protected] Logs Out
11/14/04 22:07:55
Parker: Hollywood: correct. They swipe the card and it's accepted or declined and prints out the name on the card. Period
11/14/04 22:08:08
Hollywood: thank u park
11/14/04 22:08:23
Cardkountr: someday I wish someone would challenge the retroactive revocation of a previously granted Comp......or accumulated comp balances that are revoked
11/14/04 22:08:27
sfgiants: My middle name is my dads first name, so I use all of his old credit cards, etc since his passing. so, if a cop speaks to me, I tell him I go by my middle name
11/14/04 22:08:32
JohnnyC: i suppose you could use a secured CC but I've never done it because it seems like a lot of trouble. Also, when I looked into it, these secured cards seem to have ridiculous fees etc.
11/14/04 22:08:50
Viktor: Parker: So where are you going to be for Thanksgiving this year? We're trying to decide whether or not to hold our third annual Advantage Player's Thanksgiving Dinner.
11/14/04 22:09:16
DonS: Sort of like a poor man's BJ Ball?!
11/14/04 22:09:23
Hollywood: lol
11/14/04 22:09:41
Parker: Who are you calling poor?
11/14/04 22:09:50
Matt: yeah, I agree, JC... the others clarified the cash deposit was for the hotel, not the cc
11/14/04 22:09:52
Cardkountr: careful Parker, Viktor is just trying to get someone to bring the turkey and fixings to his house lol
11/14/04 22:10:38
Viktor: DonS Pretty much! For two years we've had some serious blackjack power over to gnosh on turkey.
11/14/04 22:10:41
sfgiants: Johnny-Have you ever played in Tahoe or Reno as a team?
11/14/04 22:10:44
Parker: Viktor: I don't have any plans as of yet, but I could be in Vegas if I have a reason. 8)
11/14/04 22:10:55
DonS: knosh!
11/14/04 22:10:56
Hollywood: I saw what you wrote up there card. You were referring to them taking that comp from me when you and I were in the middle of eating lol
11/14/04 22:11:03
JohnnyC: sf- of course we played Tahoe & Reno, though not much. why do you ask?
11/14/04 22:11:09
DonS: nosh
11/14/04 22:11:32
Viktor: Cool. Let me see how many blackjack orphans I can rustle up.
11/14/04 22:11:42
JohnnyC: we were once given a comp just so we would sit still long enough for the entire casino staff to walk by and take a look at us
11/14/04 22:11:44
sfgiants: I am making those two places my first entry into card couting before I tackle Vegas in the coming years
11/14/04 22:11:50
Viktor: DonS Nosh. My bad.
11/14/04 22:11:50
Cardkountr: Hollywood yes, i was referring to what they did to you and also what Caesars did to me
11/14/04 22:12:02
Ouchez Logs Out
11/14/04 22:12:21
JohnnyC: Why don't you check out Cache Creek?
11/14/04 22:12:27
JohnnyC: It's a lot closer
11/14/04 22:12:56
sfgiants: I might check that out Friday for the first time. They have a couple DD's
11/14/04 22:12:59
Parker: Or the new Station joint
11/14/04 22:13:02
Viktor: Parker: If you come, you better bring a first draft with you!
11/14/04 22:13:05
Viktor: Just kidding.
11/14/04 22:13:17
Cardkountr: seems to me that once a comp has been granted based on your play/bet level they shouldn't be able to revoke it later
11/14/04 22:13:26
sfgiants: How are the Indian Casinos on comps? how much do I need to put down to get noticed?
11/14/04 22:13:38
Hollywood: Certainly, not while you're eating dinner lol
11/14/04 22:13:43
DonS: Seems to me they shouldn't be allowed to bar counters. There's no logic to any of it.
11/14/04 22:13:54
Cardkountr: that's for sure Hollwood!!
11/14/04 22:13:58
JohnnyC: Indian casinos aren't a monolithic entity. I don't know Cache Creek though
11/14/04 22:14:25
Parker: Indian casinos comp policies vary just as much as other casinos
11/14/04 22:14:26
Cardkountr: Don we all agree with you on that point
11/14/04 22:14:31
Viktor: DonS Max Rubin and I had long discussion about that at the party last night. There are a few simple precuations that can make everyone happy.
11/14/04 22:14:46
Viktor: Barona tries to keep you a little under $100/hr.
11/14/04 22:14:55
JohnnyC: My problem isn't "what level do I need to bet to get comps"? It's "What's the most I can bet before they get antsy enough to call surveillance?"
11/14/04 22:15:05
Parker: Yeah, Max lets me play at Barona 8)
11/14/04 22:15:21
DonS: He knows you're no threat!
11/14/04 22:15:44
Cardkountr: what was Max's view, Viktor?
11/14/04 22:15:46
Viktor: Parker I told him the story about your shock when he started listed off your Barona stats at the BJA3 party!
11/14/04 22:16:22
Parker: Yeah, that was, um, surprising.
11/14/04 22:16:49
Viktor: Card: If a person is on a team or trying to grind out more than $100/hr, then they limit them to a 3:1 spread. If they continue to be greedy, then they get backed off.
11/14/04 22:17:04
Matt: Johnny, do you get heat from them recognizing your face? or mostly from play?
11/14/04 22:17:48
DonS: Comes full circle to my earlier (mainly unanswered) question for any or all: If you were a casino manager, what would be your policy toward counters? if you've never thought about it, it's no so cut-and-dried.
11/14/04 22:17:55
Parker: Yeah, it's hard to win with a 3:1 spread 8)
11/14/04 22:18:08
JohnnyC: Hmm, I haven't been getting much heat lately. No way to be certain why, but not betting more than everyone else in the casino probably doesn't hurt
11/14/04 22:18:32
Matt: good, that's reassuring
11/14/04 22:18:49
Hollywood: Johnny, do you only play blacks???????
11/14/04 22:18:57
Cardkountr: i would allow counters and simply hold down the spread......but i'd be generous and allow a 10 to 1 spread......250 max bet
11/14/04 22:19:06
JohnnyC: Basically, my MO these days is to check out the action and try not to be the biggest bettor
11/14/04 22:19:17
DonS: Yes, Johnnny, I've always felt that not being the big shot is important. Not always feasible though.
11/14/04 22:19:19
JohnnyC: Sometimes it's hard when no one is betting blacks
11/14/04 22:19:47
DonS: Right.
11/14/04 22:20:01
JohnnyC: If only green (or no) action is around I probably won't play.
11/14/04 22:20:19
JohnnyC: Unless I just feel like screwing around at small bets.
11/14/04 22:20:27
Cardkountr: sometimes even when you're the smallest bettor on a black table you can get caught in the net if they're watching someone else
11/14/04 22:20:40
Hollywood: I have one better. I only play blacks, and lately I started going over to greens to take off some heat. I find the heat worse outside the Pit
11/14/04 22:20:45
sfgiants: Does everyone here only play on the main floor, what about HIGH LIMIT rooms?
11/14/04 22:20:49
JohnnyC: Well, if there are grim looks directed at a table I'll play elsewhere
11/14/04 22:20:53
DonS: I've always thought along the lines of a lifetime permissible win for an individual.
11/14/04 22:21:03
Hollywood: I ONLY play high limit
11/14/04 22:21:15
JohnnyC: Well, when you have 20 id's what's a lifetime limit?
11/14/04 22:21:43
Hollywood: I don't understand lifetime limit?
11/14/04 22:21:53
JohnnyC: not to mention hiding your win
11/14/04 22:21:54
DonS: Was thinking along the lines of the pit's being able to ID the player visually.
11/14/04 22:22:20
Hollywood: Don, I think a simple hat drives them crazy
11/14/04 22:22:41
JohnnyC: if there's big action in the high limit room that's great. often there's no action and then why do I want to put myself in the spotlight?
11/14/04 22:23:03
sfgiants: ok
11/14/04 22:23:21
DonS: I have never, ever played in the high-roller's rooms. Nowhere to hide. Can't blend in.
11/14/04 22:23:37
Hollywood: I agree Johnny, lately I have been trying to limit myself to weekend nights for the heavy activity and the mixing in with the morons
11/14/04 22:23:42
DonS: Too few tables. Too closely watched.
11/14/04 22:23:43
JohnnyC: when you bet big you can't hide anywhere anyway
11/14/04 22:23:54
Cardkountr: the problem is the casino mgmt mindset.......they don't want anyone winning anytime. everything is driven by quarterly profit reports and stock holders now
11/14/04 22:24:13
JohnnyC: so you hide your win
11/14/04 22:24:17
sfgiants: As a beginner, I found Ken U's chapter on getting comps fascintating. Especially about calling the casino and getting your account setup for a marker. Then, calling a week later and asking the host if they can "take of me." Does that work today?
11/14/04 22:24:28
DonS: Less chance of being zeroed in on on the floor, among dozens betting your size or better at places like Caesars, Bellagio, Mirage, etc.
11/14/04 22:24:59
chgobjpro Logs in
11/14/04 22:25:16
JohnnyC: i've seen some huge action on the bellagio floor. but surveillance there is tough no matter where you play
11/14/04 22:25:39
Hollywood: Johnny, when you talk about hiding wins, u r referring to palming and putting away chips?
11/14/04 22:25:43
DonS: I have no doubt whatsoever that casinos have lost millions over the years OVER-protecting against counters.
11/14/04 22:25:49
Cardkountr: problem with playing on the floor today is the better 6 deckers are normally only in the H/L pits in many casinos
11/14/04 22:25:51
JohnnyC: I don't know what you mean "account setup for a marker"
11/14/04 22:25:58
JohnnyC: if you mean getting casino credit, I've never done it
11/14/04 22:26:49
JohnnyC: H-wood — any way you can make the casino think your result is worse than it is. palming is one technique among many
11/14/04 22:27:06
Hollywood: thank u
11/14/04 22:27:07
Cardkountr: besides if you play under markers and one casino tags you as a counter, then any casino that checks central credit will also know you're a counter
11/14/04 22:27:35
Hollywood: Correct, Card that is one of the things that happned to me
11/14/04 22:28:02
JohnnyC: comps in LV are tougher these days. it's mostly a cut-and-dried thing for anyone but the whales though
11/14/04 22:28:07
sfgiants: ok
11/14/04 22:28:22
JohnnyC: just take a percentage of your theoretical loss and that's your comp balance
11/14/04 22:28:32
Matt Disconnects
11/14/04 22:28:40
JohnnyC: theo loss = avg bet * # hrs played
11/14/04 22:29:07
DonS: times supposed casino edge.
11/14/04 22:29:09
JohnnyC: percent that goes to comps is roughly 20-30%, depending
11/14/04 22:29:26
Cardkountr: we'd almost be better off if the casinos were real tight with comps or stopped issuing them. Then more people would refuse to be rated and it'd be easier for us to "hide"
11/14/04 22:29:26
JohnnyC: I already took that into account Don. It assumes a 2% edge
11/14/04 22:29:58
JohnnyC: many casinos are quite tight these days. the percentage is trending down under 20%.
11/14/04 22:30:17
JohnnyC: and floormen are encouraged to lower the avg bet and time played.
11/14/04 22:30:23
DonS: Percent used to be 40%, but now, as you say, they get stingier and stingier. What's more, ratings are foten for three categories of player:
11/14/04 22:30:37
DonS: 1) skillful, 2) average, 3) poor.
11/14/04 22:30:49
DonS: And, for "skillful," they no longer assume a 2% loss.
11/14/04 22:31:02
DonS: For example, if you play perfect BS, they may peg you at 1% or less.
11/14/04 22:31:05
JohnnyC: mostly floor people say average. why should they stick their neck out?
11/14/04 22:31:14
Hollywood: I find I get the most out of my comps by spending alot of time and money cultivating and manipulating hosts. My comps are very, very heavy.
11/14/04 22:31:24
[email protected] Logs in
11/14/04 22:31:28
JohnnyC: where do you play h-wood?
11/14/04 22:31:36
Hollywood: AC only
11/14/04 22:31:38
sfgiants Logs Out
11/14/04 22:32:10
Hollywood: Johnny don't yell at me, Don does it enough. He tells me I must get around
11/14/04 22:32:15
DonS: Deserves a medal for that alone. Can't get him to go to LV.
11/14/04 22:32:44
JohnnyC: if he can only devote weekends, and he lives close by, maybe it's ok.
11/14/04 22:32:51
Hollywood: I'm waiting for the concord
11/14/04 22:33:07
Hollywood: I play 2 times a week in the winter and 3 to 4 in the summer
11/14/04 22:33:12
DonS: BJ in the Imperial Room! Here we come!
11/14/04 22:33:21
JohnnyC: and also his unit isn't very big
11/14/04 22:33:37
DonS: It's big enough, Johnny.
11/14/04 22:33:55
JohnnyC: i take it that you live very close by, say no more than an hour or so
11/14/04 22:34:10
Parker: Geting kinda personal here, aren't we? 8)
11/14/04 22:34:15
Hollywood: in the summer 45 min. in winter one hour 15 min
11/14/04 22:34:27
[email protected] Logs Out
11/14/04 22:35:05
JohnnyC: valuing comps into your play is another chapter you could write
11/14/04 22:35:05
Cardkountr: alviv just left to grab a map and a compass to draw a 45 min radius from AC LOL
11/14/04 22:35:12
DonS: Yeah. We've established that Hollywood is a big player who lives within a one hour radius of A.C. That should narrow things down!
11/14/04 22:35:16
davinci Logs in
11/14/04 22:35:30
DonS: To about 10 million people!
11/14/04 22:35:32
JohnnyC: right, so he lives in Philly. So what?
11/14/04 22:35:36
Hollywood: north south east or west lol
11/14/04 22:35:53
davinci Logs Out
11/14/04 22:36:11
Hollywood: But Don is so right. I must spread my wings.
11/14/04 22:36:35
DonS: Vegas awaits you, my friend.
11/14/04 22:36:39
Hollywood: lol
11/14/04 22:36:40
JohnnyC: the MIT team treated AC as it's training ground for LV
11/14/04 22:36:47
Hollywood: really?
11/14/04 22:36:48
DonS: But, you've missed the good ol' days, I'm afraid.
11/14/04 22:37:13
Hollywood: I figured the MIT guys ended mid shoe entry as we know it?
11/14/04 22:37:22
JohnnyC: AC is sort of a safer environment. no griffin, no heavy barrings.
11/14/04 22:37:34
DonS: No barrings at all.
11/14/04 22:37:39
Hollywood: WO back up
11/14/04 22:37:44
Hollywood: no griffin?
11/14/04 22:37:44
DonS: Just "effective" barrings.
11/14/04 22:37:51
JohnnyC: well, they revoke comps, shuffle up, follow you around.
11/14/04 22:38:14
JohnnyC: well, i won't say absolutely no griffin, but much less likely to get in
11/14/04 22:38:28
Hollywood: wow, interesting
11/14/04 22:38:47
DonS: Johnny, were the MIT guys playing vs. early surrender?
11/14/04 22:38:53
JohnnyC: no midshoe? it's all over the place still
11/14/04 22:39:02
JohnnyC: i mean, midshoe is still allowed in many places
11/14/04 22:39:12
JohnnyC: MIT played ES
11/14/04 22:39:40
Hollywood: Yes, but I find it quite limited in AC. Especially 6 decks. Its more available in 8 deck games
11/14/04 22:40:02
JohnnyC: MIT didn't end it. AC did it to themselves
11/14/04 22:40:09
Cardkountr: their favorite countermeasure in AC is to place the counter on a 50 max bet, regardless of the posted table limits
11/14/04 22:40:57
DonS: That was a very big legal decision they won — being able to single out one player at a table for different rules/limits than those that applied to the other players.
11/14/04 22:41:00
JohnnyC: The MIT group as I knew it started when Resorts opened in AC
11/14/04 22:41:16
DonS: Didn't used to be possible.
11/14/04 22:41:36
Cardkountr: i still think it's discriminatory Don
11/14/04 22:41:44
JohnnyC: Of course Thorp was at MIT when he wrote Beat the Dealer, but he wasn't responsible except indirectly for the group of the late 70's
11/14/04 22:41:46
DonS: So, they were there with the Czechs, from the very beginning.
11/14/04 22:42:07
DonS: It is clearly discriminatory.
11/14/04 22:42:31
JohnnyC: Well, sort of. MIT players were there but they were betting small. It was only the beginning
11/14/04 22:43:00
DonS: Ah, those were the days!
11/14/04 22:43:09
Cardkountr: here's one for you Don.......two casinos refused to allow my wife to play at the same table as me........
11/14/04 22:43:23
DonS: Off-the-top BS edge. Four-deck shoes.
11/14/04 22:43:43
DonS: Card: On what grounds?
11/14/04 22:43:44
JohnnyC: yes, that was as Uston put it, a candy store
11/14/04 22:43:45
nnd Logs in
11/14/04 22:43:56
Cardkountr: then after she complained to the GC, they then agreed she could sit at the table BUT i couldn't TALK to her......yeah right
11/14/04 22:43:56
DonS: Did you play then, Johnny?
11/14/04 22:44:01
Hollywood: Card, I liked it better when they said she could sit with you, but you could'nt talk to her
11/14/04 22:44:18
JohnnyC: I got started right after they took out early surrender. people were saying it was the end of the game
11/14/04 22:44:40
DonS: "One half of a shoe." Introduced 8 decks and cut four.
11/14/04 22:44:47
Cardkountr: i told them they'd have to arrest me for talking to my wife and then i'd let a judge and jury decide if i have the right to speak to my wife
11/14/04 22:45:00
DonS: LOL, Card!
11/14/04 22:45:07
JohnnyC: i've played when they've cut 7 decks out of play
11/14/04 22:45:07
Cardkountr: they backed right off
11/14/04 22:45:22
disadvplyr: thats awesome card
11/14/04 22:45:29
DonS: Just for you, Johnny?
11/14/04 22:45:36
JohnnyC: yes, just for me
11/14/04 22:45:41
Cardkountr: i also told the gaming commission if they upheld the no speaking to my wife thing......i'd name them in the suit too
11/14/04 22:45:44
DonS: How long did you stay?
11/14/04 22:45:51
JohnnyC: i was steering so it actually improved my game considerable
11/14/04 22:45:51
Hollywood: Johnny, thats why I said earlier, that is the way to neutralize counters. If they cut the decks, we just leave.
11/14/04 22:46:02
JohnnyC: considerably
11/14/04 22:46:15
DonS: Funny. Must have really pissed them off.
11/14/04 22:46:32
JohnnyC: when you have a few weapons they can shoot themselves with indiscriminate reactions
11/14/04 22:48:08
Cardkountr: Don, the casino had placed me on a one hand restriction with a 50 max bet and told the gaming commission that I was circumventing the one hand restriction by having my wife play a hand
11/14/04 22:48:25
Hollywood: I don't mind it when they keep it business. But, these casino people take it so personal
11/14/04 22:48:26
JohnnyC: one time we were playing in the pit at Trump Marina. The pit manager told the floorman that if player x bets the max, then shuffle. So i replaced player x and bet 80% of the max. They went berserk but had to let the play stand after the dealer dealt the cards
11/14/04 22:48:33
DonS: Ah, I see.
11/14/04 22:49:15
JohnnyC: i generally don't like to wear out my welcome but if it's the only place to play i guess it's the only choice, other than not playing at all
11/14/04 22:49:16
Cardkountr: and my reply was "so what" NJ law says that they must allow anyone to play.......she's a person therefore she can play
11/14/04 22:49:34
DonS: You didn't get a second hand, did you, Johnny?
11/14/04 22:49:44
JohnnyC: i didn't need a second hand
11/14/04 22:49:53
JohnnyC: it was a 1 round play
11/14/04 22:50:23
JohnnyC: i think the max was 2500 and I bet 2 hands of 2000.
11/14/04 22:50:39
Cardkountr: lol that got their attention Johnny
11/14/04 22:50:49
JohnnyC: they already were paying attention
11/14/04 22:51:58
JohnnyC: but the hijinks we played in AC got to us in the end. basically even years after i stopped playing there i was still remembered. At the Sands, I was recognized within 15 minutes after not playing there for 5 years!
11/14/04 22:52:28
Hollywood: Once at trump marina, they had me on watch. And they had a person stand over me. As soon as I would increase my bet from 1 to 2 units. He would yell out. "HE INCREASED HIS BET" to a guy on the phone with them upstairs. All the other players were looking
11/14/04 22:52:29
JohnnyC: I once doubled hard 19 and they remembered that
11/14/04 22:52:43
DonS: Those instant recognitions are amazing, huh, Johnny?
11/14/04 22:53:18
JohnnyC: I sat down in the pit and bet the minimum. After no more than 2 decks, someone came up and said hello to me
11/14/04 22:53:38
JohnnyC: (the pit was crowded and I was playing with others)
11/14/04 22:53:49
DonS: I had a similar thing in Tahoe after not being there in 8-9 years!!
11/14/04 22:54:03
JohnnyC: I was taken aback. Looked around and everyone working in the pit was waving at me!
11/14/04 22:54:18
Hollywood: Don, that is a good question regarding facial recognition. How much about that do we really know?
11/14/04 22:54:37
Cardkountr: don't you hate that! they must frantically go thru their photo album or do you think their memory is that good?
11/14/04 22:54:46
DonS: This was LONG before facial recognition. They had to do it the old-fashioned way.
11/14/04 22:55:14
JohnnyC: Lots of false positives, but given that there aren't that many advantage players, they just list the best matches in order. Usually good enough.
11/14/04 22:55:19
DonS: Well, it IS their job, but sometimes, it's hard to believe.
11/14/04 22:55:36
Hollywood: Just recently I was playing and the guy had a folded picture of me in his hand, but they were not sure it was me.
11/14/04 22:56:06
DonS: You should have told him, "Boy your kid is ugly!!"
11/14/04 22:56:11
JohnnyC: Don, I take it that your appearance hasn't changed much in 10 years.
11/14/04 22:56:13
Cardkountr: lmao
11/14/04 22:56:15
Hollywood: lol
11/14/04 22:57:02
DonS: Well, for THOSE 10 years, probably true.
11/14/04 22:57:06
Cardkountr: bet they got some good pics of you on halloween Hollywood :/
11/14/04 22:57:31
JohnnyC: One time I was playing in Chicago and the shift boss said "You look like a player I knew from AC named John Chang but you can't be old enough"
11/14/04 22:57:46
Hollywood: Its interesting what Johnny said, that they take the best and its usually good enough
11/14/04 22:57:49
disadvplyr: whoa
11/14/04 22:57:52
DonS: It's nice to get younger as the years pass!
11/14/04 22:57:57
Hollywood: Johnny that is funny
11/14/04 22:58:03
JohnnyC: I had been carded while boarding the boat
11/14/04 22:58:28
Hollywood: They busted you while u were getting on????????
11/14/04 22:58:46
JohnnyC: nah, they needed to id me to make sure I was 21+.
11/14/04 22:58:53
Hollywood: lol
11/14/04 22:59:29
Hollywood: I am making it my job to have several new identities by jan 1.
11/14/04 22:59:59
Cardkountr: you're going thru with the breast implants then?? lol lol
11/14/04 23:00:00
Hollywood: I find when I go into a casino and tell them I dont want to be rated for now. There antenas go right up. and the trouble starts
11/14/04 23:00:26
JohnnyC: if you're betting blacks and don't want to get rated, something's funny
11/14/04 23:00:36
11/14/04 23:00:49
Hollywood: It dont make sense. And to them, it makes even less sense
11/14/04 23:01:17
Hollywood: Why would anyone not want something for nothing?
11/14/04 23:01:24
DonS: Then, stop doing it!
11/14/04 23:01:44
JohnnyC: oh, you can have some excuses that work. like say you're so wealthy the comps they give you aren't worth shit. so you arrive with bodyguards and in a yacht or your private jet.
11/14/04 23:02:16
Hollywood: Ive got this all figured out Johnny. I'm gonna tell them i'm Don Schlesinger
11/14/04 23:02:25
disadvplyr: HA
11/14/04 23:02:27
Cardkountr: just give a phony name and then a bs story why you don't have your id on you
11/14/04 23:02:48
DonS: Well, it will be the first time he's ever played in an American casino!
11/14/04 23:03:11
Hollywood: I have no id sir, but do you have change of 30 thousand
11/14/04 23:03:19
DonS: LOL!
11/14/04 23:03:24
Cardkountr: aha........another clean name to use lol
11/14/04 23:03:49
DonS: You can try. Pit bosses can't read anyway.
11/14/04 23:03:49
Hollywood: I figure if we ALL tell them we are Don, it will confuse the hell out of them.
11/14/04 23:04:21
JohnnyC: James Grosjean just won a great victory against the IP.
11/14/04 23:04:48
Hollywood: 400K
11/14/04 23:04:54
Hollywood: I think?
11/14/04 23:04:59
DonS: Will be interesting to see if it changes the way anyone is treated going forward.
11/14/04 23:05:00
JohnnyC: yes
11/14/04 23:05:11
Cardkountr: hope it's not appealed
11/14/04 23:05:13
JohnnyC: I have to imagine that it will
11/14/04 23:05:18
JohnnyC: of course it will be appealed
11/14/04 23:05:25
Hollywood: It absolutly will be apealed
11/14/04 23:05:37
Cardkountr: then all we can hope is that it will be upheld upon appeal
11/14/04 23:05:47
DonS: Figure James might see his money by, oh, 2010?!
11/14/04 23:05:57
Parker: Maybe not — $400K isn't really a lot to a casino
11/14/04 23:06:01
Hollywood: That is still a good ole boy town
11/14/04 23:06:18
JohnnyC: I don't think James needs the money. But the prospect of having to pay that should discourage casino abuse of players
11/14/04 23:06:22
DonS: It's not the money. they hate giving a dime to an AP.
11/14/04 23:06:46
Hollywood: I agree Don
11/14/04 23:07:09
Hollywood: For whatever reason, this is completely personal to these people
11/14/04 23:07:09
Cardkountr: i'm kinda surprised they didn't settle with a gag order so they'd be no precendent
11/14/04 23:07:27
JohnnyC: they offered to, but for 10K. james laughed at them
11/14/04 23:07:36
DonS: Hard to say. Suppose 100 players are treated the way they treated James. How many do you figure will stay the course and spend the time and money he did to pursue the matter?
11/14/04 23:07:37
Cardkountr: i guess he did!!
11/14/04 23:07:39
Hollywood: really? wow
11/14/04 23:08:16
Hollywood: Don that is a good point
11/14/04 23:08:29
Cardkountr: very few would have the resolve or the resources to take legal action against the casinos
11/14/04 23:08:30
Hollywood: if a person does not have deep pockets he does not hang in
11/14/04 23:08:48
JohnnyC: well, i'm glad Bob Nersesian (James's lawyer) got part of it. Now maybe he will feel that it's not just charity, it might even be good business to represent card counters.
11/14/04 23:08:59
DonS: For example, how many others have been treated the same or worse than James was that night, but did nothing?
11/14/04 23:09:07
JohnnyC: many
11/14/04 23:09:09
DonS: I think it was the jail time that made this so heinous.
11/14/04 23:09:58
Hollywood: Going after anyone for nothing more then being smart is criminal
11/14/04 23:10:20
Cardkountr: don't they only have a certain number of days to file an appeal? many states only allow 30 days
11/14/04 23:10:46
Hollywood: Every state has a diff statute for appeals
11/14/04 23:11:00
DonS: Not sure. Maybe we can ask James or Bob.
11/14/04 23:11:50
Hollywood: I once spent half a million dollars to fight a lawsuit that I could have settled for 25 thousand dollars. Just to make a point. So I get it.
11/14/04 23:12:06
DonS: Guys, I have to get going. Johnny, it's been a pleasure.
11/14/04 23:12:24
JohnnyC: thanks Don.
11/14/04 23:12:25
Cardkountr: it's amazing that a casino thinks they can violate a persons basic rights and falsely detain them for no reason.......and illegally search you and take your pic.
11/14/04 23:12:28
DonS: Thank you for hosting. I hope you'll do it again sometime.
11/14/04 23:12:30
Hollywood: Goodnight Don
11/14/04 23:12:46
Cardkountr: Night Don
11/14/04 23:12:52
milon Disconnects
11/14/04 23:12:55
DonS: Good night, everyone.
11/14/04 23:12:58
JohnnyC: Actually I was just talking about the Bahamas. They still have 62K of our money they stole from our players.
11/14/04 23:13:01
Viktor: Good night Don!
11/14/04 23:13:08
DonS Logs Out
11/14/04 23:13:12
Hollywood: Really?
11/14/04 23:13:12
Hollywood: wow
11/14/04 23:13:21
Hollywood: How long ago was that Johnny?
11/14/04 23:13:43
JohnnyC: not sure exactly. about 7 or 8 years i think
11/14/04 23:14:25
Hollywood: Johnny, what is your recomendation for starting new identity?
11/14/04 23:14:36
Hollywood: Strictly to play
11/14/04 23:14:53
JohnnyC: first try a credit card picture.
11/14/04 23:15:17
Hollywood: When you say a credit card picture????
11/14/04 23:15:30
JohnnyC: some credit cards put the card holder's picture on them
11/14/04 23:15:42
Hollywood: I didnt know that, ok
11/14/04 23:15:53
JohnnyC: citibank is one.
11/14/04 23:16:04
Hollywood: is it by request
11/14/04 23:16:14
JohnnyC: yes
11/14/04 23:16:44
JohnnyC: a company photo id used to work
11/14/04 23:16:48
JohnnyC: it should still
11/14/04 23:17:08
Hollywood: Then just use these things to get players cards?
11/14/04 23:17:25
JohnnyC: tell them if they ask what happened to your license that you lost it for reckless / drunken driving
11/14/04 23:17:36
JohnnyC: player's cards and checking in
11/14/04 23:18:06
Hollywood: Not really a problem, because I plan to have a drivers lic. to match the credit card
11/14/04 23:18:16
Cardkountr: here's a thought I had.......find out what conventions are in town and then make a "name tag" under that co name and attach your pic and phony name
11/14/04 23:18:44
Hollywood: "Blackjack Forum" used to publish all the conventions for just that reason
11/14/04 23:18:46
JohnnyC: sure, if you can do it conveniently go ahead.
11/14/04 23:18:52
Cardkountr: you could even walk by the hospitality table for the convention and pick up a name tag as you pass
11/14/04 23:20:44
Hollywood: Johnny, my eys are starting to close. I can't thank you enough.
11/14/04 23:20:58
JohnnyC: is there anything else guys?
11/14/04 23:21:00
Hollywood: You have been absolutely wonderful
11/14/04 23:21:08
Hollywood: Just thank you
11/14/04 23:21:26
Parker: Thanks so much for hosting, Johnny
11/14/04 23:21:28
JohnnyC: i got plenty more where that came from
11/14/04 23:21:32
Hollywood: And good luck with everything
11/14/04 23:21:33
Cardkountr: Thanks for your time Johnny
11/14/04 23:21:44
disadvplyr Logs Out
11/14/04 23:21:48
josey_wailes Logs Out
11/14/04 23:22:15
chgobjpro Logs Out
11/14/04 23:22:33
Hollywood Logs Out
11/14/04 23:22:55
Viktor: JohhnyC Thank you very much for hosting. As usual, you are a fount of information.
11/14/04 23:23:27
Viktor: We need to work on making you a star. Start with book, then some self-promotion, etc.
11/14/04 23:34:23
Parker: Good night all. Johnny, thanks again.
11/14/04 23:34:34
Cardkountr: Seeya Parker
11/14/04 23:34:46
Parker Logs Out
11/14/04 23:37:55
nnd Logs Out
11/14/04 23:38:38
Viktor Disconnects
11/14/04 23:39:06
Cardkountr Logs Out
11/14/04 23:41:44
JohnnyC Disconnects