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Parker: Re: Unplayable?
While it's true that different people have different priorities, this is, after all, AdvantagePlayer.com, and our focus is on playing at an advantage.
My point was simply that the poorly penetrated closely watched double deck game may not be the best choice in Las Vegas, or even in that particular casino. The six deck shoe with the good rules (S17, LS), decent penetation, and a pit that is more concerned with the double deck games may be a better play both in terms of pure EV and comp hustling.
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Wolverine: No doubt
Point taken and understood. I have never really liked a shoe game, and that bias comes through loud and clear in how I play the advantages.
Maybe someday I will enjoy Wonging a pit full of 6 deckers, but to me, that seems like work, albeit profitable. I prefer my BJ to be a relaxing hobby. To each their own.
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Trapper: Your response was helpful
My post was really meant to be a question and not an argument so I really didn't take offense and I hope you didn't either. I have always been curious why some counters focus exclusively on pitch games even as conditions deteriorate. Even with the mediocre penetration on these games, they would be better games than the shoe games if a decent bet spread could be employed and everything else was equal. Clearly based on this thread and others that is not the case.
Some form of cover may be required for all game but you referred to "heavy camo". Norm made an eye-opening post in January on the effect of cover on the long run. One of the conclusions is that playing with what most (but not necessarily you) would consider heavy cover produces a N0 which could take a lifetime for a recreational player to reach.
I understand that your primary interest is not EV in dollars won and that SCORE and concepts like N0 are not the determining factor in your game selection. I guess my assumption is that the point of card counting is to extract the maximum amount of money from the casinos that the casinos and your bankroll will allow. I realize that comp hustling is another form of advantage play that can be lucrative in its own way but one that is only partially related to the approach I assumed.
I don't follow your argument on SCORE. You can't just multiply your bet levels to increase the SCORE of the game being considered . The SCORE is based on betting optimally to a $10,000 bankroll and 13.5% ROR. Once you have chosen a count and a betting strategy you are pretty much stuck with that SCORE. The advantage is so slim in card counting that the SCORE of the game you play is always a pretty big deal. Once you have set the optimum bet based on your bankroll you can only increase your EV by increasing your risk or increasing your bankroll.
Isn't even 6 to 1 a pretty risky spread when you are playing for RFB and exposing your game to the Pit and Surveillance for multiple hours?
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Wolverine: thanks
Glad you found my post helpful, albeit incorrect in some ways.
I have never really understood SCORE, even though it is an easy concept. On the 1 to 6 spread, you are correct, the SCOREs aren't all that great when I run a sim. However, a good act will get you a chance to spread more than that, and that is the entire game to me. But working off that 1 to 6 spread, sometimes you get opportunities to push the envelope. My record so far is 40 to 1 (yes, in DD), and I am still welcome there. I may have to run a sim to see what the SCORE is on that game! WOW!
As for the "comp hustle," I am not a limo driven, spoiled rotten player demanding every amenity available. I want a decent room (no suites, or penthouses) and a few nice meals. No more. Therefore, at a decent level of play, you don't have to play hours and hours in order to receive that level of comp. You travel to other casinos and hit them much, much harder looking to fatten your bankroll.
As for pitch vs face up games, there are actually a lot of DD face up games (some even with S17). But penetration-wise, you are right on the money, Wynn gives the best by far.
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YaleMoto: Re: thanks
> Glad you found my post helpful, albeit incorrect in
> some ways.
I don't think you are incorrect in playing DD. Some of the posts in this thread seem to imply the view that 4.5/6 (75% penetration)is a better game than 50-60% penetration in a DD game, using % penetration instead of the number of undealt cards to evaluate penetration. 4.5/6 with S17, DAS, and LS is not a very good game if you are playing all like you like to play - especially at lower spreads. Check out the calculations for DD v. 6 deck at various levels of pen, including SCORES, at bjstats.com.
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