Have a trip to vegas coming up, but now all I read about is the proliferation of 6:5 blackjack for double and single deck. Are there any places on the strip still at 3:2 for double and single deck?
If not, where are my best odds for 6/8 deck. Staying at the luxor, but don't mind traveling. Please let me know spec, ie DAS, double any cards, resplit aces to X, surrender.
Thanks,
Kellen
Basically the 3-2 payoff for Single Deck is defunct. There may still be a good single deck game at the El Cortez downtown -- presuming that you are playing RED to light green for short sessions.
Good normal 2 deckers are still available at most properties with 3-2 payoffs on snappers.
For good green action stay on the strip and duck into the following joints:
Mirage, NY NY, Bellagio
Best action for those playing Black and purple is at Wynn.
Caveat: If you play 2 spots on positive counts only you will be shown the door in a hurry. Limit your spread to 6-1 or less.
> For good green action stay on the strip and duck into
> the following joints:
> Mirage, NY NY, Bellagio
> Best action for those playing Black and purple is at
> Wynn.
> Caveat: If you play 2 spots on positive counts only
> you will be shown the door in a hurry. Limit your
> spread to 6-1 or less.
I'm a little confused re: your caveat---which games are you talking about? Strip DD games at Mirage, NY NY, Bellagio or Wynn....or are you talking about strip 6/8 deck games there....
Thanks
> I'm a little confused re: your caveat---which games
> are you talking about? Strip DD games at Mirage, NY
> NY, Bellagio or Wynn....or are you talking about strip
> 6/8 deck games there....
I didn't make the post - Flash did. I assume that he's talking about DD games, since all of the places mentioned have decent double deckers, assuming you can handle minimums of at least $25, and often considerably higher during peak periods.
OOPS, sorry, it was just as you guessed--i thought you were responding to the post, sorry
anyway, it's good to know we have another source of information besides you the all around good guy, Mr. Parker!!
i will repose the question to Flash...
> I didn't make the post - Flash did. I assume that he's
> talking about DD games, since all of the places
> mentioned have decent double deckers, assuming you can
> handle minimums of at least $25, and often
> considerably higher during peak periods.
> Caveat: If you play 2 spots on positive counts only
> you will be shown the door in a hurry. Limit your
> spread to 6-1 or less.
i'm a little confused by the Caveat...which type of game were you refering to with your Caveat about spreading to two hands? double decks or 6 deck shoes?
> Caveat: If you play 2 spots on positive counts only
> you will be shown the door in a hurry. Limit your
> spread to 6-1 or less.
I agree, the 6 to 1 spread seems playable at those casinos. However, playing a bigger spread and playing 2 hands ALL the time will still get you the boot. The MGM-Mirage properties are getting pretty tight on counters at their DD games. Unfortunately, I think heavy camo is a necessary evil at these places the larger your bet amount or bet spread.
Virtually anywhere in L.V. I played at The Paris for 21 mins. with a very soft spread and was tapped on the shoulder. Hours later I was evicted from sister property - Caesars Palace and read the trespassing act.
Even with no camo, playing one handed with Hi Lo I18 and a 6 to 1 spread on these strip DD games (I am excluding the Wynn DD) gives you an unplayable game. How many bathroom breaks can you take? Looking at CBJN, these games have penetration that varies between .8 and 1.1 decks cut off. Scores for these games would be in the $15 to $28 range. Even playing two hands all the time, SCORES are under $40. Combine that with heavy camo and you are better off staying home. It seems there are much better options at the same casinos yet so much of the discussion in card counting forums focuses on these Double Deck games - even with worsening rules (DAS) and the greater surveillance on these games. I am curious what the attraction is. What am I missing?
> Even with no camo, playing one handed with Hi Lo I18
> and a 6 to 1 spread on these strip DD games (I am
> excluding the Wynn DD) gives you an unplayable game.
> How many bathroom breaks can you take? Looking at
> CBJN, these games have penetration that varies between
> .8 and 1.1 decks cut off. Scores for these games would
> be in the $15 to $28 range. Even playing two hands all
> the time, SCORES are under $40. Combine that with
> heavy camo and you are better off staying home. It
> seems there are much better options at the same
> casinos yet so much of the discussion in card counting
> forums focuses on these Double Deck games - even with
> worsening rules (DAS) and the greater surveillance on
> these games. I am curious what the attraction is. What
> am I missing?
You are not missing anything. I suspect that many occasional visitors to Las Vegas are drawn to these games simply because the casinos in their home areas only offer shoe games, and "double deck must be better."
In order to get any sort of EV at these games, a spread of at least 1-8 must be used, with little or no cover. Playing in this manner will usually result in a quick boot.
There are still a handful of playable DD games in LV, but it can take some legwork to find them.
>I am curious what the attraction is. What
am I missing?
You're not missing anything, and you're right. Counters who prefer(red) hand-dealt games are a stubborn breed. They continue to try to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
Don
I mean no offense, and I am not trying to pick a fight at all, but maybe my perspective is different than yours.
> Even with no camo, playing one handed with Hi Lo I18
> and a 6 to 1 spread on these strip DD games (I am
> excluding the Wynn DD) gives you an unplayable game.
If the casino can "tolerate" a 1 to 6 spread, then why not stay within their tolerances? The only time I've had any problems is when I exceeded that tolerance range. I've even sat next to a player using the "1 for bad, 2 for good" method of betting. He wasn't touched, of course.
> SCORES for these games would
> be in the $15 to $28 range. Even playing two hands all
> the time, SCORES are under $40. Combine that with
> heavy camo and you are better off staying home.
As for camo, you have to play with some anywhere you play. Choose it wisely, and you don't ruin the positive EV of the game. Choose unwisely, and you are right, you create a negative EV game. Better not to play.
I assume you are using a $25 to $150 spread. What about a $100 to $600 spread? How about $500 to $3,000? I'm no statistical or mathematical genius, but I assume that the $100-600 SCORE is multiplied by 4 compared to the $25-150 model? Is a SCORE in the $60 to $112 range something that gets your attention? Why is the SCORE such a big deal to you if there is a positive EV associated with the game?
Some of us play as a hobby--we have a day job that pays quite well. If we can vacation in LV and scoop up some comps (full RFB is always nice!), "earning" money off our blackjack might not be our number one goal! If we win, great. If we break even, we still did okay since we have the comps. If we lose, consider it payment for the vacation and reload for the next time you come to town. Variance is our biggest hurdle regardless of the exact game we play anyway!
> It seems there are much better options at the same
> casinos yet so much of the discussion in card counting
> forums focuses on these Double Deck games - even with
> worsening rules (DAS) and the greater surveillance on
> these games. I am curious what the attraction is. What
> am I missing?
As Parker and Don point out below, to improve your SCORE you have to seek out games that are better than the standard Strip DD. However, if you don't live in LV, you have to stay somewhere to play in LV. If you are playing at the green chip level, and a casino offers you a room comp, you are going to have to play *some* time there. Would you rather pay for a nice Strip hotel room out of your potential profits? I don't think there is a SCORE big enough to absorb the punishment of a nightly $200+ Strip rack rate on a lazy weekend, is there? Heaven forbid you play on Final Four or Super Bowl weekend--rates are through the roof! So many choose to stay downtown or off the Strip. Just more leg work to get to a green or black chip game. I prefer the resort amenities rather than an older room in downtown anyway. Just my preference.
So, a very long winded way (I apologize) to say: any positive EV game is welcome for a comp hustler that plays BJ as a hobby, not a living.
But you are exactly right--there are better situations to play if you are trying to make money at the game.
Also, avoid the Paris' tables: no DAS on the Strip at DD is a ridiculous rule. Yet, they keep very busy. Just one more nail in our DD coffin anyway. I figure the DD game will be extinct before much longer unless they go 6:5 on it too.
As I said at the beginning, I'm just trying to point out another view. I hope it was helpful.
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