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Thread: jgalt1: Bob Dancer: Another way to get thrown out of a casino

  1. #14
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: to jgalt1, Bettie, and Parker

    > I also have never even heard of pulling cards like
    > Dancer wrote. I'm too busy trying to win.

    (Dancer wins, apparently. If he is pulling cards it must be possible to do both.)

    ASSUMING for a minute that pulling cards can actually circumvent the win/loss record, I perceive you three, for one reason or another, feel it is bad policy.

    I don't play VP and have been thinking this through the last day or two. If the reluctance to do so is to score more comps, how is that any different than ratholing chips?

    If the reluctance is due to not wanting to burn out a good situation, as Parker alluded to, I suppose that is understandable.

    None the less, the casino guy 'implying' this is cheating is classic.

  2. #15
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: SSN

    > Do players club cards normally require a social
    > security number?

    There is often a space for a social security number on the players club application. I always write "decline" in this space, as in "decline to state." I have never once had this questioned.

    Of course, if you hit a slot/VP jackpot of over $1200, you must provide your SSN for the W2G.

    > When you go to this website, to request your win/loss
    > statement, is part of the other info a request for a
    > social security number?

    I've never done this, so I don't know. I would like to mention that one should never provide any personal info (especially SSN) unless it is requested on a secure website. Look for a little padlock or key symbol in a corner of the browser.


  3. #16
    Bettie
    Guest

    Bettie: Re: Two more Qs ..

    > When you go to this website, to request your win/loss
    > statement, is part of the other info a request for a
    > social security number?

    Let me reiterate that each casino has their own win/loss request form. Some make it available online, some do not. The request for your SSN is only made (though Parker states correctly above that some player's clubs do ask for it) IF you turn in the win/loss statement. That's because the casino is likely going to report that win/loss to the gov, and your SSN is your federal id.

    You can go to any casino and get a win/loss request form. It isn't until you give it back to the casino with all of the info filled out that you are entered into the accounting system to receive, along with (potentially) the gov your win/loss statement after 6 or so weeks.

    Bettie

  4. #17
    Bettie
    Guest

    Bettie: Answers

    > (Dancer wins, apparently. If he is pulling cards it
    > must be possible to do both.)

    Dancer never said that he pulled his card as far as I can tell. He wins because he has the bankroll to play the best games at the highest denominations and the free time to play for the hours and hours usually required to hit jackpots. He's well-known for it, which is why casinos will change paytables (for the worse, naturally), remove games, etc. after he hammers them. Most recently, the Palms removed all of their $1 and up NSU Deuces because he was spotted playing these multi-line machines for 8-plus hours every day in an effort to win the Hummer that was part of the current promotion. Fortunately, they had enough complaints and the common sense to put the machines back to their regular paytable after about 2 weeks. NSU Deuces is, after all, a slightly negative-ev game and removing them was ridiculous. But so strong is the average casino's reaction to Dancer that they will frequently pull games based solely on seeing him nearby, not even looking to see if he won or if those machines have positive or negative ev's. I'm not joking; it's ridiculous.

    > ASSUMING for a minute that pulling cards can actually
    > circumvent the win/loss record, I perceive you three,
    > for one reason or another, feel it is bad policy.

    > I don't play VP and have been thinking this through
    > the last day or two. If the reluctance to do so is to
    > score more comps, how is that any different than
    > ratholing chips?

    It's not, really, but it's much, much easier to rathole chips. At any rate, while some casinos do look at the overall win/loss of your play when assigning your comp mailing for the next month, most look only at your total coin-in.

    > If the reluctance is due to not wanting to burn out a
    > good situation, as Parker alluded to, I suppose that
    > is understandable.

    I don't think there's anyway that card-pulling can burn out a good situation. That's more frequently done by monopolizing all of the good machines during a specific promotion. Teams of people will come in and relieve one another after they play for several hours, so that no one else gets a chance to play, and this happens much more frequently than you might believe.

    > None the less, the casino guy 'implying' this is
    > cheating is classic.

    It is, and it used to work. The "cheating" being done is really just a one-on-one accounting thing. The ONLY thing that proper card-pulling achieves is that it manipulates the amount of money that it looks like you won. I do not think that this is going to be a viable option for long as technology gets better and casinos gets smarter. There are very few casinos/machines left in LV where this can be done without arousing suspicion.

    The reason I don't do it is simple: I make a good amount of money playing video poker, and the casinos will happily kick you out if they catch you card-pulling. Well, they don't actually kick you out, but they stop sending you mailings, which means no more multiple-point promotions, no more free play, no more free passes to night clubs or free concert tickets, etc., etc. I'm not willing to take that risk because a good chunk of the money I make playing vp is a direct result of these mailings. It's just not worth it.

    Bettie

  5. #18
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: Re: Two more Qs ..

    > It isn't until you give it back to the casino
    > with all of the info filled out that you are entered
    > into the accounting system to receive, along with
    > (potentially) the gov your win/loss statement after 6
    > or so weeks.

    I'll accept the above at face value for now as I am not familiar with the win/loss report.

    It just seems odd that the casino has all the information neccessary to provide a win/loss report (assuming you are a joiner) but they won't produce it, or transmit it to the IRS, until you provide a SSN. (Yes, of course they can't transmit it without a SSN, I know.)

    And further, I have known very few, if any at all, business' that voluntarily provide info to the IRS that is not required.

    The W2G regs, the CTR requirements, etc are clear and well defined .. so they comply. This win/loss record that is, I assume in some instances, being transmitted to the IRS, on a sporadic selective basis creates a big disconnect for me.

  6. #19
    jgalt1
    Guest

    jgalt1: Another Dancer ?

    If Dancer's play is so unwanted why does Fiesta have him give lessons on their property---for pay---and have Bob Dancer machines on the floor? I assume they have good payback tables if he allows his likeness on them.

    Isn't this like a casino hiring an unwanted card counter like Don to give a bj and card counting seminar?

    And since Dancer has his face on his own machine, they could put Don's face on the layout of certain tables.

    "Honey while you play the Bob Dancer machine, I'll go sit at the Schesinger table over there and try to make a few bucks."

  7. #20
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: Dancer's version


    > Dancer never said that he pulled his card as far as I
    > can tell. He wins because he has the bankroll to play
    > the best games at the highest denominations and the
    > free time to play for the hours and hours usually
    > required to hit jackpots. He's well-known for it,
    > which is why casinos will change paytables (for the
    > worse, naturally), remove games, etc. after he hammers
    > them. Most recently, the Palms removed all of their $1
    > and up NSU Deuces because he was spotted playing these
    > multi-line machines for 8-plus hours every day in an
    > effort to win the Hummer that is part of the current
    > promotion. Fortunately, they had enough complaints and
    > the common sense to put the machines back to their
    > regular paytable after about 2 weeks. NSU Deuces is,
    > after all, a slightly negative-ev game and removing
    > them was ridiculous. But so strong is the casino
    > reaction to Dancer that they will frequently pull
    > games based solely on seeing him nearby, not even
    > looking to see if he won or if those machines have
    > positive or negative ev's. I'm not joking; it's
    > ridiculous.

    Not surprisingly, Dancer has a different take on what happened at the Palms. Link to a column of his below.




  8. #21
    Don Schlesinger
    Guest

    Don Schlesinger: Very funny concept! :-) *NM*


  9. #22
    Bettie
    Guest

    Bettie: Re: Another Dancer ?

    > If Dancer's play is so unwanted why does Fiesta have
    > him give lessons on their property---for pay---and
    > have Bob Dancer machines on the floor? I assume they
    > have good payback tables if he allows his likeness on
    > them.

    Ironically, they have negative paytables. While they used to have one good game on them, those were taken off entirely, and the other games are all at least one notch below full-pay because the casino knows that people will see his name and sit down to play. The good games are at seemingly innocuous machines.

    The Fiesta (Henderson, anyway) has some pretty smart people at the helm. They know that people are attracted to good video poker and pay Dancer (and his associates since Dancer doesn't teach every class) very well to teach these classes. They also know that not everyone who takes these classes is going to play well or have the interest to really teach themselves the positive games, so the casino will make just as much money off the class attendees as they do anyone else who just sits down to play.

    Did you know that Fiesta Henderson is rated #1 by VPinsider.com for video poker in Las Vegas? Did you know that RGE and Skip Hughes own VPinsider together? Did you know that Fiesta has 4 signs inside the casino advertising that VPinsider.com rated them "Best Video Poker" and had their giant marquee read as such for almost 3 weeks straight back in April/May? The funniest thing is that one of these signs sits on top of a bank of Bob Dancer machines!

    Fiesta Henderson been advertising VPinsider.com (the video poker player's version of Trackjack) for 4 months now, an Advantage Player site. And this attracts people who know that they have good games but who may not know how to play them or even what those games are. I saw a woman sit down at a full-pay deuces game once and hold single "high" cards. There are no high cards in deuces, so those jack or off-suit ace-queen holds aren't going to do you a bit of good. But that sign on top of the machine said "Over 100% Payback" so she sat down.

    Bettie


  10. #23
    chadley
    Guest

    chadley: It Doesn't Work

    As a former programming engineer for a casino software company, let me tell you this. Pulling your card after a win doesn't change anything.

    Your card only serves one purpose...to identify you to the system. All of the other data (points earned by session and total points, etc) as well as your personal information is stored in the system's hard drive, not on your card.

    It would be very easy to scam the casinos if all your info was stored on your card.

    As soon as the game outcome is determined, that info is fed into the system. It is impossible to pull your card out and "fool" the computer.

    As a matter of fact, there is a built in "delay" which means your card will still be read for a short time after removing it. This prevents a minor computer glitch or overload from robbing you of your earned points.

    There are ways to cheat the system...this isn't one of them.

    clee

  11. #24
    Greasy John
    Guest

    Greasy John: Mabye...

    But so strong is the average
    > casino's reaction to Dancer that they will frequently
    > pull games based solely on seeing him nearby, not even
    > looking to see if he won or if those machines have
    > positive or negative ev's. I'm not joking; it's
    > ridiculous.

    he should start playing 6:5 BJ

    GJ

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