I just read a column by Bob Dancer this morning on Casinogaming.com about another reason casinos are asking patrons to leave.
It seems some video poker players are removing their players cards from the machine before all the points are tallied after a big win. It's becauase some casinos won't comp as gererously if players win too much.
A casino suit said this was cheating.
Why do they let anybody in at all?
The casinos believe that any money that anyone walks into a casino with is rightfully theirs. Their job is simply to come up with creative ways to get customers to willingly hand it over. If they could figure out a way to get people to simply go straight to the cashier window and give them all their money, they would happily do away completely with all this gaming nonsense.
With that mindset, the next logical conclusion is that anyone who figures out a way to keep some of "their" money must be a "cheater," even if they aren't breaking any laws or rules.
On a related note, a while back one of the Detroit area casinos was actually 86'ing skilled video poker players.
> I just read a column by Bob Dancer this morning on
> Casinogaming.com about another reason casinos are
> asking patrons to leave.
Bob Dancer is probably the most well-known video poker player and author today. He's also one of the reasons casinos have ended entire promotions, changed the paytables on hundreds of machines, and have restructured the way slot points accumulate for vp players, simply because of the way that he plays.
> It seems some video poker players are removing their
> players cards from the machine before all the points
> are tallied after a big win. It's becauase some
> casinos won't comp as gererously if players win too
> much.
This player "trick" has been around for quite some time, and the player thinks that they are pulling one over on the casino. It's doubtful, and here's why. Card-pulling as you describe above (pulling after a big win while the credits are racking up) is utterly useless. It doesn't matter if the credits are still accumulating; the win has already been logged by the computer. It knows how much you won, no matter if you pull the card after just 1 credit has racked up or if 900 credits have racked up. That's because the computer has ALREADY determined the outcome of your hand, just as soon as you hit the deal button, and it needs just a millisecond to confirm that you have played your hand to a specific outcome. Since it knows the correct payout of every hand, once it knows the hand you drew to, it knows how much you won. The credit meter is for the player's benefit only, so they can listen to the little music as the credits rack up and do a happy little dance in their seat. In most cases, by hitting the deal/draw button, you can stop the credit meter from racking up the points. Does this mean that you didn't get that money? Hell, no! It just jumps forward to the final credit outcome.
Pulling your card in this fashion is not only useless, it's stupid, because it actually alerts the casino to what you are trying to do. A quick glance over your play records as the casino gauges your play for the next month's mailer will show your card is being removed every time there is a sigificant win and, as I've already pointed out, those wins are always recorded, so the player's club will know exactly what you're doing.
> A casino suit said this was cheating.
This is cheating like walking into your own bank and demanding money from the teller who sees you every payday is robbing it. You're being foolish and you will ALWAYS get caught.
Now, you want to know the proper way to pull your card? Too bad, because I don't condone, nor do I practice this attempt at record-manipulation. I don't say anything to anyone who pulls their card, in the hopes that they'll be barred from playing (some casinos will just stop sending you mailers and hope you get the message), but some casinos just change all of the games to unplayable paytables in order to run out these so-called "smart" players. Some casinos get smart themselves (believe it or not), and institute a system where, if you pull your card, it still records your session. You can tell because the session screen reads "Carded session still in progress." In order to stop the session from recording, you have to cash out your money. Card-pulling is no longer an option at these casinos (Palms does this; I'm not sure of others).
> Why do they let anybody in at all?
See Parker's answer.
Bettie
> Bob Dancer is probably the most well-known video poker
> player and author today. He's also what we call a
> "vulture" and casinos have ended entire
> promotions, changed the paytables on hundreds of
> machines, and have restructured the way slot points
> accumulate for vp players simply because of the way
> that he plays. While he is knowledgeable, do not
> emulate his style of play or you will incur the wrath
> of many a vp player, as well as the casinos.
> This player "trick" has been around for
> quite some time, and the player thinks that they are
> pulling one over on the casino. It's doubtful, and
> here's why. Card-pulling as you describe above
> (pulling after a big win while the credits are racking
> up) is utterly useless. It doesn't matter if the
> credits are still accumulating; the win has already
> been logged by the computer. It knows how much you
> won, no matter if you pull the card after just 1
> credit has racked up or if 900 credits have racked up.
> That's because the computer has ALREADY determined the
> outcome of your hand, just as soon as you hit the deal
> button, and it needs just a millisecond to confirm
> that you have played your hand to a specific outcome.
> Since it knows the correct payout of every hand, once
> it knows the hand you drew to, it knows how much you
> won. The credit meter is for the player's benefit
> only, so they can listen to the little music as the
> credits rack up and do a happy little dance in their
> seat. In most cases, by hitting the deal/draw button,
> you can stop the credit meter from racking up the
> points. Does this mean that you didn't get that money?
> Hell, no! It just jumps forward to the final credit
> outcome.
> Pulling your card in this fashion is not only useless,
> it's stupid, because it actually alerts the casino to
> what you are trying to do. A quick glance over your
> play records as the casino gauges your play for the
> next month's mailer will show your card is being
> removed every time there is a sigificant win and, as
> I've already pointed out, those wins are always
> recorded, so the player's club will know exactly what
> you're doing.
> This is cheating like walking into your own bank and
> demanding money from the teller who sees you every
> payday is robbing it. You're being foolish and you
> will ALWAYS get caught.
> Now, you want to know the proper way to pull your
> card? Too bad, because I don't condone, nor do I
> practice this attempt at record-manipulation. I don't
> say anything to anyone who pulls their card, in the
> hopes that they'll be barred from playing (some
> casinos will just stop sending you mailers and hope
> you get the message), but some casinos just change all
> of the games to unplayable paytables in order to run
> out these so-called "smart" players. Some
> casinos get smart themselves (believe it or not), and
> institute a system where, if you pull your card, it
> still records your session. You can tell because the
> session screen reads "Carded session still in
> progress." In order to stop the session from
> recording, you have to cash out your money.
> Card-pulling is no longer an option at these casinos
> (Palms does this; I'm not sure of others).
> See Parker's answer.
> Bettie
Totally agree with Bettie that pulling after a win is an excercise not woth pursuing.
However for the more serious player, pulling the card at he right moment can be beneficial.
If you are dealt a hand straight in (say 3 of a kind, 2 pair), which will be a winning hand and has the potential to grow into something even better, you can pull your card before holding the dealt hand/cards, play the hand-win your credits. Cash out, then start all over.
Your 'losses' will be more severe than they are today
Do you really think that the computer has no way to remember which player started a hand if the card isn't physically present in the reader? This notion runs contrary to the way that computers are designed to work.
If the casino has 300 or so VP and slot-machines in use, then you believe that the casino is willing to load their computers down with the task of requesting player-card info from each card-reader through every step of every "hand". That would be in addition to the tasks already assigned to the computer, such as retrieving the win/loss data each time a hand is played or a "lever" is "pulled".
A more likely scenario would be that the computer checks for the outcome (the win or loss) at the conclusion of each hand and assigns the win/loss data to the player who initiated play at that machine, regardless of whether the card is still physically present in the reader. A process like that cuts the number of "reads" the computer needs by exactly half without the possibility of error. The computer spends less time reading player-cards and more processor-time is available for other tasks.
The procedure might have been different in the very, very early days of computers tracking slot-play, but the software companies that supplied the systems would've quickly devised "patches" after seeing the tricks players use in real-world play. A sharp programmer with actual VP experience would've intuitively known to address the scenario you describe (during the design phase) and would've instituted the techniques to thwart it while at the same time reducing the load on the processor and the card-reader, which can and do go bad eventually and have to be replaced. Why use up a processor or card-reader twice as fast as you have to?
The card-reading device, in addition to actually reading the card, probably has some kind of optical sensor (nothing more than a light that's aimed toward a mirror). If the sensor "sees" the light reflected back from the mirror, it knows that no card is present. Removing your card initiates the process to close out your playing session, but there's no reason to believe that the close-out process isn't placed "on hold" until the current hand is completed. Computers are "smart" enough to put the close-out procedure second (or third, or fourth) in the string of tasks the computer has to accomplish (and they have been since Day One). The computer won't "think" "Oh, the player has left! Stop the presses! Close out his session right NOW!" That's just silly. The close-out process would be scheduled to take place at a spot that's convenient for the computer. The programmer (in his code) would write code that says the convenient time is after a hand is resolved, not before.
I'm with Bettie on this one. Baseball players still turn the bat's label away from the pitcher in the mistaken belief that the label pinpoints the "weak" part of the bat. It's just voodoo based on myth. This is no different, IMO.
And then there's the Coast casino Player's card, which only awards points for Dollars won, not Dollars wagered.
What would be the point of trying to hide your wins anyway? I can't believe the Casino would kick out a slot player who wins. They would try to keep him playing, because they would get their money back sooner or later.
BJ is a different story, VP may be a different story, (I'm not convinced yet), but slots? They want to keep those quarters flowing!
-oldnewbie
Actually, I have heard from some supposedly knowledgeable people that the card-pulling trick is not effective at casinos with newer tracking systems.
I do play a little VP, and I find it suprising, in these days of bean-counters and 6:5 bj, that many casinos still offer games that have a positive expectation (with perfect play). Stunts like card-pulling, even if they were effective, fall into the category of "slaughtering the cow instead of milking it." If casinos feel that players are abusing the system, they are much more likely to replace the full-pay machines with short-pay ones.
telling people how to pull their card to their "benefit" (as I stated, I don't agree with the practice and am not even sure it works anymore with the newer technology). But, as I also said, I don't tell anyone how to play, even when they ask me for strategy tips when they see the cards I carry. I also keep my mouth shut at the tables; it's just too dangerous.
Bettie
> What would be the point of trying to hide your wins
> anyway?
Because, at the end of the year, many players get their win/loss statement from a casino in order to reconcile their taxes. Since your winnings can be offset your losses (but the casinos don't give you W2L (losses) along with those W2Gs that can stack up), a lot of players try this stunt in order to show a greater loss when that win/loss statement is generated.
I'm also a non-believer of getting those win/loss statements from the casinos. For one, I already have my W2Gs tracked, so I know how much to tell the gov I won (not one cent over the total of my W2Gs). Many, many casinos are in the practice of reporting your win/loss to the gov if you request the form, though they will otherwise only report your total W2G wins. Since I think the government should only see the numbers that I want them to see, that practice is dangerous. I might re-think that position if I knew that I lost a very big amount, say $20,000, but you can only write off your losses to the extent of your winnings, so it's pretty useless to get those reports.
I hope that I was able to explain myself here. I'm certainly no expert, though we carry several books that can help anyone who needs more information.
Bettie
> Many, many casinos are in the practice of reporting your win/loss to the gov if you request the form ...
Would you care to expand on this?
Does the report state that this information is being transmitted to the government (in lieu of form 1099 maybe)?
Specifically how, and by what method (form) is the information contained in this 'report' transmitted to the government?
> Would you care to expand on this?
As much as I can.
> Does the report state that this information is being
> transmitted to the government (in lieu of form 1099
> maybe)?
Depends on the individual casino. Make sure that you ask if, by submitting the win/loss request form, that the statement will also go to the gov. For example, based on past information only, HRH does not submit the info while the Stations does (again, this may not currently be accurate). Win/loss statements are NOT universal. First, you go to the casino or the casino's website and fill out a request for your win/loss statement that requires your name, player's club number, and some other info. The win/loss statement will then be mailed to your residence.
> Specifically how, and by what method (form) is the
> information contained in this 'report' transmitted to
> the government?
No clue.
Bettie
Thanks for all the responses.
For the record, I always use my player's cards except if I'm betting at much lower limits and/or less time then normal.
I also have never even heard of pulling cards like Dancer wrote. I'm too busy trying to win.
> Win/loss statements are NOT
> universal. First, you go to the casino or the casino's
> website and fill out a request for your win/loss
> statement that requires your name, player's club
> number, and some other info.
I have one players club card and was not required to provide a social security number.
Do players club cards normally require a social security number?
When you go to this website, to request your win/loss statement, is part of the other info a request for a social security number?
Thanks.
Posting Permissions
-*-
Bookmarks