Sun Runner: the Dice Dominator

[Sun Runner]

Saw Breakin' Vegas last night and was, astonished, I guess, on several levels ..


Stanford Wong is now a 'Craps Expert!?' I know he is a really really smart guy and I know he wrote a book on craps, but come on.


(Note to Mr. Wong .. get a hat that fits dude!)


Is the History Channel now pimping hour long infomercials? The only thing they didn't do was give the toll free number to Golden Touch.


Is this the same Jerry Patterson of Target BJ fame?


Assuming .. assuming .. (and I'm still not a believer, but I wanna be!) this guy can throw like that, only an over-educated physics guy like Pawlicki would have let that bird nest on the ground get away.

Have the 'long run dice throws' (45 minutes, 55 plus rolls, etc) they spoke about coming from Scoblete and the Dominator been verified by anyone other than themselves? If so, what are the odds of those kind of streaks appearing? Long, no doubt. If verifiable, would that not lend some credibility to their ability?


An interesting show.


(Sun Runner, I am your fatheeerrrrr.)


I can hear the Dominator calling even now.

[Ouchez]

> Saw Breakin' Vegas last night and was, astonished, I
> guess, on several levels .. Stanford Wong is now a
> 'Craps Expert!?' I know he is a really really smart
> guy and I know he wrote a book on craps, but come on.
> (Note to Mr. Wong .. get a hat that fits dude!) Is
> the History Channel now pimping hour long
> infomercials? The only thing they didn't do was give
> the toll free number to Golden Touch. Is this the
> same Jerry Patterson of Target BJ fame? Assuming ..
> assuming .. (and I'm still not a believer, but I wanna
> be!) this guy can throw like that, only an
> over-educated physics guy like Pawlicki would have let
> that bird nest on the ground get away.

> Have the 'long run dice throws' (45 minutes, 55 plus
> rolls, etc) they spoke about coming from Scoblete and
> the Dominator been verified by anyone other than
> themselves? If so, what are the odds of those kind of
> streaks appearing? Long, no doubt. If verifiable,
> would that not lend some credibility to their ability?
> An interesting show. (Sun Runner, I am your
> fatheeerrrrr.) I can hear the Dominator calling even
> now.

If the casino allows certain things. Wong the great Scobe copier, what a rip! Anything for a buck.....

Craps doesn't hold a candle to a good DD game, it is a bore....unless the casino allows certain things...or you are cheatin.....or taking shots....

Ouchez.

[Wolverine]

Sun Runner,
Your question about "long runs" in craps (i.e., holding the dice) reminds me of the story in BJA3 about the old roulette dealer that Don talks to about the roulette results board filling up with black or red. It seems so "unlikely" yet when the math is done, it should happen about once a month. (I searched in vain for the page reference, but couldn't find it. Don, put 'roulette' in your damn index, will ya?)

I don't play that much craps. But I've managed to hold the dice for 45 minutes. I've watched my friends get a hot roll going where they held the dice for 30 minutes or so. It was a payout nightmare, that was the main reason I held the dice so long. Lots of hardaways make for lots of odd payouts. I think if you play enough, you're going to have "one of those rolls." However, if you can have one of those rolls frequently, you are either controlling the dice or getting really lucky. They don't happen ALL the time. I've only had ONE of those rolls. Ever. But I've probably only put in 20 hours of craps play. You figure out if those odds are on par with what Wong is preaching or if they have over estimated their "holding the dice" powers in order to sell stuff.

I'm with the rest of the "Show Me" crowd. Do it for independent, skeptical observers to prove you can. I'm not interested in the "trust me, its true" form of verification. Or, "I held the dice for 45 minutes." That seems like selective memory rather than observable, confirmed outcomes.

Just my lousy 2 cents....worth what you paid for them: NOTHING.

[Don Schlesinger]

> Sun Runner,
> Your question about "long runs" in craps
> (i.e., holding the dice) reminds me of the story in
> BJA3 about the old roulette dealer that Don talks to
> about the roulette results board filling up with black
> or red. It seems so "unlikely" yet when the
> math is done, it should happen about once a month. (I
> searched in vain for the page reference, but couldn't
> find it. Don, put 'roulette' in your damn index, will
> ya?)

Sorry, wrong book! You couldn't find it, because it's not in BJA3 -- or any other edition of the book. Obviously, you have the story confused with someone else.

Don

[Bettie]

> Is this the same Jerry Patterson of Target BJ fame?

Yes.

> Have the 'long run dice throws' (45 minutes, 55 plus
> rolls, etc) they spoke about coming from Scoblete and
> the Dominator been verified by anyone other than
> themselves?

Long dice throws can't be all that uncommon, as the California Hotel downtown has an annual party/craps tournament for everyone who holds the dice for more than an hour throughout the year. At least they used to; I don't know if they still do because I haven't been there in a couple years. I seriously doubt that all of those people are controlling the dice.

Bettie

[Wolverine]

Don,
You are right! I went to my library after writing that and found that it was in a different blackjack book (By TJ Reynolds, The Complete Book of Blackjack). Sorry for the misquote. It is on page 67 of his book.

He also goes on to debunk Jerry Patterson on page 68, so I think you (Don) may actually like this guy's thinking.

This was the first book I read about index play in 1998 or 1999. I'm surprised more people haven't read it. It is a very good introduction to card counting and basic strategy plays.

[Sun Runner]

> I think if you play enough,
> you're going to have "one of those rolls."

My only reference point for this discussion is the show, which puts me on thin ice.

They said rolling a seven occurs at the rate of 1:6 or thereabouts. Not throwing a seven in say 30 plus rolls, seems like something is effecting 'chance', and they purport to do it with some degree of regularity.

> However, if you can have one of those rolls
> frequently, you are either controlling the dice or
> getting really lucky.

Are you saying you feel controlling the dice is doable or trying to prove that it must be luck?

> You figure out if those odds are on par with what Wong is
> preaching or if they have over estimated their
> "holding the dice" powers in order to sell stuff.

I don't know what Wong is preaching and probably won't be finding out anytime soon.

> I'm with the rest of the "Show Me" crowd. Do
> it for independent, skeptical observers to prove you
> can. I'm not interested in the "trust me, its
> true" form of verification.

Me neither; hence the post.

Thanks.

[Sun Runner]

Giving the facts in the show 100% of the benefit of the doubt ...

... perhaps you should have split with Patterson long before you did. Anyone willing to stick with Pawlicki's nickel betting strategy while kicking Loiggio (sp) to the curb could not have been all that bright.

[Don Schlesinger]

> Don,
> You are right! I went to my library after writing that
> and found that it was in a different blackjack book

Yeah, I thought that might be the case! :-)

> (By TJ Reynolds, The Complete Book of Blackjack).
> Sorry for the misquote. It is on page 67 of his book.

> He also goes on to debunk Jerry Patterson on page 68,
> so I think you (Don) may actually like this guy's
> thinking.

> This was the first book I read about index play in
> 1998 or 1999. I'm surprised more people haven't read
> it. It is a very good introduction to card counting
> and basic strategy plays.

I have to admit that I don't know the book at all. I'll try to find it the next time I'm in one of the chains.

Don

[Don Schlesinger]

> Giving the facts in the show 100% of the benefit of
> the doubt ...

> ... perhaps you should have split with Patterson long
> before you did. Anyone willing to stick with
> Pawlicki's nickel betting strategy while kicking
> Loiggio (sp) to the curb could not have been all that
> bright.
_
>

Actually, all the dice, greyhounds, roulette, options, etc. stuff from Jerry came long after I split with him, which was way back in 1984. He didn't start with all the other nonsense until later.

Don

[Parker]

> Don,
> You are right! I went to my library after writing that
> and found that it was in a different blackjack book
> (By TJ Reynolds, The Complete Book of Blackjack).
> Sorry for the misquote. It is on page 67 of his book.

> He also goes on to debunk Jerry Patterson on page 68,
> so I think you (Don) may actually like this guy's
> thinking.

> This was the first book I read about index play in
> 1998 or 1999. I'm surprised more people haven't read
> it. It is a very good introduction to card counting
> and basic strategy plays.

I have this book and I completely agree. It is well written and mathematically sound.

I think that it never received much attention because:

1. It doesn't break any new ground. It covers the rules, basic strategy, and the Hi-lo counting system. It does this well, but so do a lot of other books.

2. It is published by Lyle Stuart, that beacon of journalistic excellence that foisted John Patrick upon the world.

[Don Schlesinger]

> 2. It is published by Lyle Stuart, that beacon of
> journalistic excellence that foisted John Patrick upon
> the world.

And, ahem, Lawrence Revere. :-)

Don

[the_heater]

Holding the dice for an hour or for 45 rolls without "sevening out" is not the same thing as not rolling any sevens during this time. During the typical "hot roll" the shooter will roll several sevens, but they will "luckily" occur on the come out rolls. Every time the shooter makes his point he gets a new come out roll; if he rolls a 7, he wins and gets another come out roll. The hot rolls that I have seen consisted of a lower than normal (maybe one standard deviation or less) occurance of sevens, along with the sevens falling at the "right time". Obviously this will happen from time to time.
The above is not intended to suggest that it is not possible for a shooter to influence the dice.

Heat