Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 14 to 21 of 21

Thread: SOTSOG: Just Enough To Ruin My Day.

  1. #14
    98%
    Guest

    98%: There is a bright side to everything

    Let's try to be positive, people. In general, Harrah's properties are among the most incompetent and exploitable in all the land. Their game protection is poor, at best, and they focus so much on cutting corners that they lose sight of the big picture and let the likes of us slip right through the cracks. I welcome a corporation of chimps taking over Caesars because, while class will go right out the window and there may well be more thrown fecal matter to dodge on any given day, profitability will skyrocket.

  2. #15
    Victoria
    Guest

    Victoria: Re: There is a bright side to everything

    I will agree that some of the least sophisticated pits I have ever met (near morons) were Harrah's. At the same time do not forget how they protect themselves from their own incompetance. The S-17 game will quickly become H-17, surrender might well disappear, double after split on DD will be gone, and penetration will suffer. Look at the current rules at Caesars and compare them to Harrah's or the Harrahshoe. They will also eventually add some CSM's and who knows what else. Do not forget that the top line management of Harrah's is good at making money for the corporation and probably know that they do not need great managers on the front lines because their games are bad enough to overcome deficiencies in personel.
    You might get longevity easier at Harrah's but for myself, longevity at a place where I can hardly make any money is just not worth the bother.
    OFFICIAL DISCLAIMER::: My obvious love for Harrah's is totally personal.

    Victoria

  3. #16
    98%
    Guest

    98%: Re: There is a bright side to everything

    I'll take incompetence and bad rules over (relative) shrewdness and good rules anyday. Remember, any deficiency in rules can be overcome by sufficient aggression, and I'm sure it is easier to get away with more brazen play in Harrah's than in Caesars. Of course, incompetence manifests itself in many other profitable ways than merely the allowance for more aggression. I find that employee morale and concern is very low at Harrah's in comparison to that found in other casinos and an apathetic staff is our friend. I would chalk this up as a product of inept middle-management. And just to illustrate the relevance of this example, I think you're far more likely to find aberrant dealers giving phenomenal penetration at a house where not caring a whit is the norm than you are at a well-managed house where people take pride in their casino and their jobs.

    By the way, please do not take this as some sort of endorsement of great management and top-flight employees at Caesars Palace. Everything is relative; Caesars is much like a toilet bowl while Harrah's is more akin to a toilet bowl with a foul odor and an unpleasant crust forming about the edges.

  4. #17
    bfbagain
    Guest

    bfbagain: Caesars, Palace Forum Dealers & Crew

    Although I ran out of time this last trip, (and Caesars was not on my trip plan this trip) and I'll be a little tight on time my next trip, I'll be sure to visit the Palace to get some up-to-date comments in both the HL room and the Forum pits.

    Caesars management, i.e., Caesars gaming management, not the bean counters, are a very parochial crowd. They have always seen themselves as the "top dogs" in the Caesars empire. So much so, that prior to the long-awaited, or should I say, the long attempt to integrate their connections marketing concept, Caesars itself always looked at their other properties as unwanted stepchildren.

    Even the "famed" Caesars Lake Tahoe, took a back seat to Caesars Las Vegas.

    And forget about info sharing. (And I'm still counting on that ) Even as late as last December, other CZE (formerly PPE) properties couldn't access Caesars Las Vegas info, as that was "priceless" according to Caesars LV management. Hosts at other CZE properties could verify that you were in the system, but to access personal player info, personal calls had to be made to Caesars LV.

    Caesars Palace Forum pit personnel, i.e., floorpersons, dealers, et al with some rare exceptions, are at complete odds with the "new breed" of management, and management practices that have been implemented. So much so, that they are actually obstinate (sometimes to the players detriment, vis a vie comps and ratings per se) when it comes to the corporate guidelines.
    If you were able to establish yourself with certain pit bosses, dealers, etc., you often were a big time beneficiary re:comps and ratings, as well as favorable pen., dealer errors, etc.

    My hunch is that the "new" management will be met with much more resistance than any of the previous internal Caesars Corporate policies. This is, as 98% says, will become a major opportunity. As far as the HL area being removed, that's no loss to anyone but the Harrahs management, as they are notorious for being morons, and they will no doubt, live up to that moniker.

    The major downside to Harrahs taking over this one time Vegas jewel (for some, not all ) is Harrahs itself. Paris, Bally's, Flamingo, O'Sheas, are really Harrah's type properties already. The symmetry between the two corporations is there for all to see. The only real losses are Caesars LV and Caesars Tahoe. And my prediction is they'll remain relatively close to where they are now, but with less motivated game protections, so I'm not convinced that this is a bad thing for Ceasars (LV & Tahoe) as much as it is for all the rest.

    All anyone has to do is visit the Grand Casinos in either Biloxi & Tunica, along with Bally's and Sheraton in Tunica, to know this is not a major loss. It may actually help the Harrahs properties. We'll see.

    Anyway, I've had some time to think about this and these are merely some reflections. At first glance I was shocked, as I really do like Caesars LV and Tahoe, even though they have had the potential to be nasty, I've escaped that all these years. Lucky I guess. Can't say that about all their properties though.

    Just think of it this way, it'll make the corner of Flamingo and Las Vegas Blvd a little more interesting.

    cheers
    bfb

  5. #18
    Victoria
    Guest

    Victoria: Re: There is a bright side to everything

    Overcoming bad rules with sufficient aggression??

    Yes, that works but is dependent upon other factors. My experience at Caesar's is about 20 visits over the past 5+ years, spreading $25-$300 dollars at their shoe game, being a net winner of 5 figures and never getting any real heat. I think my act may be good and being a woman helps.
    My experience at Harrahs Vegas, includes being loudly called a "card counting whore" by one of their friendly customer service oriented pit supervisors.

    Victoria

  6. #19
    98%
    Guest

    98%: Re: There is a bright side to everything

    > Yes, that works but is dependent upon other
    > factors. My experience at Caesar's is about
    > 20 visits over the past 5+ years, spreading
    > $25-$300 dollars at their shoe game, being a
    > net winner of 5 figures and never getting
    > any real heat. I think my act may be good
    > and being a woman helps.

    I guess my own experiences didn't go as smoothly there as yours.

    > My experience at Harrahs Vegas, includes
    > being loudly called a "card counting
    > whore" by one of their friendly
    > customer service oriented pit supervisors.

    I wish some casino employee would call me a "card counting whore." That's great. I never get that kind of personalized, friendly treatment in the casinos. But, back to the point, I think you have escaped at Caesars by being below the radar. Perhaps Harrah's has a lower tolerance for pain though, past a point, neither place will tolerate much in the way of positive player expectation action. My experiences at establishments run by both coporations, Harrah's and Caesars, have involed wins, massive heat, and worse. In the end, neither corporation and I were seeing eye to eye about my role at their gaming tables, but it took Harrah's a lot longer to get around to not liking me. I think they're more likely to forget they don't like me, too.

  7. #20
    Victoria
    Guest

    Victoria: Re: There is a bright side to everything

    The difference perhaps: At Ceasar's I could always sit down at a table where there was at least another player playing black, generally more than one. My action would be that of one of the lower betting players, plus being a talkative woman, the attention I generally received had little to do with game protection. At Harrah's the average bets are lower and my game received more attention.
    Below the radar as you put it, is just fine with me.
    The other key to longevity and where I failed at Harrah's was knowing your opponent!! I have played at Caesar's enough and have an uncle who has played there at least 20 years. You know what has worked in the past, you know if you can get away with pocketing a ton of greens when they are watching the black and other players have left the table with bunches of green, not coloring up, as an example. At Harrah's I had no knowledge of how things worked or their sweat level on a first hand basis. Now if I return to Caesar's, I may or may not know my opponent. I may or may not be able to play. Hell, with Harrah's general rules, why play. There are still much better places on the strip and downtown (there the sweat is a known entity and a fun challenge).

    Overall, I just plain do not like Harrah's. When I watch the WSOP and their head beancounter runs that problem gambling commercial, I laugh and think that perhaps because of the incident with the drunk at the Shoe, instead of a the heavy fine they deserved, they were forced to run this hypocritical message. You know BS and it is not basic strategy. Of course, if I had a few thousand shares of HET stock, I probably would shut up and smile.

    Victoria---venting

  8. #21
    98%
    Guest

    98%: Re: There is a bright side to everything

    > The difference perhaps: At Ceasar's I could
    > always sit down at a table where there was
    > at least another player playing black,
    > generally more than one. My action would be
    > that of one of the lower betting players,
    > plus being a talkative woman, the attention
    > I generally received had little to do with
    > game protection. At Harrah's the average
    > bets are lower and my game received more
    > attention.

    Just so you know, there are plenty of occasions where you can bet black at Harrah's and not be the highest bettor in the joint or even at the table.

    As to your part about knowing your opponent, that's true, but things change and you have to change with them. You say Harrah's deals an inferior game but, with a little time spent scouting, you will find strong games there, thanks to uneven and generally inferior management at the floor level.

    My whole perspective is that of welcoming change for the reasons it will be superior instead of lamenting the losses which time inevitably inflicts upon us. On the surface, the acquisition of Caesars by Harrah's seems bad and, in fact, it is for many reasons. But, these are all corporations with loads of bloat, incompetence and poor communication. If you can't find a way to slip through the cracks and make some solid EV in Harrah's, then it probably just means you were so comfortable with Caesars that you haven't tried very hard yet. In time, when all the dust has settled, I'm sure you'll find yourself doing just as well at Caesars under new management as you have been all along.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

About Blackjack: The Forum

BJTF is an advantage player site based on the principles of comity. That is, civil and considerate behavior for the mutual benefit of all involved. The goal of advantage play is the legal extraction of funds from gaming establishments by gaining a mathematic advantage and developing the skills required to use that advantage. To maximize our success, it is important to understand that we are all on the same side. Personal conflicts simply get in the way of our goals.