Heard from someone there were lots of these 6:5 SD games offered in Vegas now.
What are the rules and # of hands dealt/penetration for these games. Do they use a cut card, or does the dealer shuffle as "needed". Just curious. Thanks in advance for any discussion of these games.
> Heard from someone there were lots of these
> 6:5 SD games offered in Vegas now.
> What are the rules and # of hands
> dealt/penetration for these games. Do they
> use a cut card, or does the dealer shuffle
> as "needed". Just curious. Thanks
> in advance for any discussion of these
> games.
The rules are generally okay, other than the 6:5: Dealer hits soft 17, double any two cards, double after split okay. O'Shea's is an exception, with D10-11 only and no DAS, giving it an off-the-top house advantage of 1.84%, making it quite possibly the worst blackjack game in Las Vegas and maybe anywhere.
What is really stupid is that penetration is generally the usual single deck rule of six (four rounds to two players, three rounds to three players, etc.). With a house edge of nearly one and a half percent, they could deal to the last card and not give up much.
The game is unplayable. Not only is the house edge huge, but the reduced BJ payout means that a player's advantage will not increase as quickly as the count goes up.
Hopefully these ripoff games will die a quick death.
I saw a game on a scandinavian cruise ship that
took your money on pushes!
Keno anybody?
Congrats on the new job.
D.
> The rules are generally okay, other than the
> 6:5: Dealer hits soft 17, double any two
> cards, double after split okay. O'Shea's is
> an exception, with D10-11 only and no DAS,
> giving it an off-the-top house advantage of
> 1.84%, making it quite possibly the worst
> blackjack game in Las Vegas and maybe
> anywhere.
> What is really stupid is that penetration is
> generally the usual single deck rule of six
> (four rounds to two players, three rounds to
> three players, etc.). With a house edge of
> nearly one and a half percent, they could
> deal to the last card and not give up much.
> The game is unplayable. Not only is the
> house edge huge, but the reduced BJ payout
> means that a player's advantage will not
> increase as quickly as the count goes up.
> Hopefully these ripoff games will die a
> quick death.
> I saw a game on a scandinavian cruise ship
> that
> took your money on pushes!
> Keno anybody?
.. now, there's no need for such slanderEven blackjack where you lose pushes is still MILES ahead of Keno and it's horrific advantage well in the 30% range.
M.
Why is this such a ripoff - for an extra 3/4 of a percent, you get a single deck game with 6 hands dealt heads up?!? I would think that one could throttle these games using a 1-6 spread or so, and beat them very nicely using a smaller spread and a sophisticated strategy - oriented count. Please let me know if I am off base I have not really played BJ for years.
Am I wrong about this, or will they still not let you spread bets much at these games. Thanks for the reply and the further discussion.
On an unrelated note, someone referred to a "lose ties" game as still being better than Keno. This fails to account for the rate of play. Keno plays so slow, that you can play for a long time and not lose too much, if you enjoy it. A terrrbile BJ game is not like this.
> Why is this such a ripoff - for an extra 3/4
> of a percent, you get a single deck game
> with 6 hands dealt heads up?!? I would think
> that one could throttle these games using a
> 1-6 spread or so, and beat them very nicely
> using a smaller spread and a sophisticated
> strategy - oriented count. Please let me
> know if I am off base I have not really
> played BJ for years.
You are off base. :-)
A 6:5 game with (otherwise) good rules (double any two cards, double after split okay) has an off-the top house advantage of 1.45%. A typical downtown single deck game has a house advantage of .18%. A six deck shoe with good rules (dealer stands on soft 17, double any two cards, double after split, late surrender) had a house edge of .26%
As if that wasn't bad enough, the reduced value of blackjacks means that card counting is less effective. In other words, an increase of 1 in the true count is worth less than the usual half percent.
> Am I wrong about this, or will they still
> not let you spread bets much at these games.
> Thanks for the reply and the further
> discussion.
I haven't run any sims, but I would say you'd need at least a 1-20 spread to beat this game, and they won't let you do that for very long. I think many pit critters don't realize just how bad this game really is. If they did, they would let the dealers deal deeper.
> On an unrelated note, someone referred to a
> "lose ties" game as still being
> better than Keno. This fails to account for
> the rate of play. Keno plays so slow, that
> you can play for a long time and not lose
> too much, if you enjoy it. A terrrbile BJ
> game is not like this.
Very true. Keno players expect to lose. They're the same people who buy lottery tickets. As long as they can sit in the keno lounge, socialize with other keno players, and get a few comp drinks, they're happy.
> The game is unplayable.
(Amen, brother)
> Not only is the house edge huge, but
> the reduced BJ payout means that a
> player's advantage will not increase
> as quickly as the count goes up.
Parker, wouldn't the playing effeciency of most card counting systems be degraded? Specifically, the Ace value in the most popular systems is dependent on the 3:2 payout for naturals. Whether included in a running count or a side count, the true value for each ace would be diminished with a 6:5 payout. Hypothetically, if a player were to actually try to beat this game, he would need to adjust the ace value and generate a new system matrix to allow for this condition.
Not that anyone should waste his time doing this; I am simply suggesting that the -1.84% becomes a larger disadvantage to overcome with even the best systems currently available.
To repeat, "the game is unplayable." Don't favor these casinos with your custom. A simple word-of-mouth campaign could work wonders in sending this new variation to an early demise.
> (Amen, brother)
> Parker, wouldn't the playing effeciency of
> most card counting systems be degraded?
> Specifically, the Ace value in the most
> popular systems is dependent on the 3:2
> payout for naturals. Whether included in a
> running count or a side count, the true
> value for each ace would be diminished with
> a 6:5 payout. Hypothetically, if a player
> were to actually try to beat this game, he
> would need to adjust the ace value and
> generate a new system matrix to allow for
> this condition.
That is exactly what I was alluding to. Thanks for clarifying it.
> Not that anyone should waste his time doing
> this; I am simply suggesting that the -1.84%
> becomes a larger disadvantage to overcome
> with even the best systems currently
> available.
> To repeat, "the game is
> unplayable." Don't favor these casinos
> with your custom. A simple word-of-mouth
> campaign could work wonders in sending this
> new variation to an early demise.
Indeed, although my first impulse, which is to stand at a 6:5 table full of players and scream at the top of my lungs, "You people are idiots!" probably wouldn't be very effective.
It never ceases to amaze me that people play these games, when there are usually better games just a few feet away.
Then again, I remember a few years ago when one of the casinos experimented with European style single zero roulette. After a few months, they brought back the double zero tables. I asked a pit boss if the table holds had been unacceptable. "No," he said, "Management was okay with the hold. People just like the double zero tables better."
Go figure.
> It never ceases to amaze me that people play
> these games, when there are usually better
> games just a few feet away.
> "Management was okay with the
> hold. People just like the double zero
> tables better."
> Go figure.
And the casinos maintain they are truly afraid of counters? I was re-reading Blackbelt in Blackjack last night and in the early part of the book, it seems to me Snyder believes, or at least did then, that with all the really truly bad bad play going on, the few decent counters could not make a signifigant % dent in the hold.
Of course if a 1% differential starts equating to be a $1MM a day -they might. Who knows?
SR
Not because of counters, but because the average dummy that plays the game has gotten a lot less dumb. Almost all ploppies stop short against a stiff dealer card and hit to at least 16 against a big one, and at least are smart enough to split aces and usually 8s, and double on 10 and 11 - always doubling on 10 and 11 isn't quite as bad as the original recommended strategy of never doubling on anything!
However, holds for the game have gotten as low as they'll go, I think. The average person just doesn't want to get any smarter.
M.
Parker,
at Casino Regina, they have a single zero and a double zero wheel. Logically enough, the limits on the single zero wheel are twice what they are on the double zero wheel. However, every time I go there for a poker tournament, I see the single zero wheel dead and the double zero wheel packed. I asked one double-zero guy that was betting mountains of chips - thus clearly capable of clearing the single zero minimum - why he was on the double zero wheel.
His answer: "You don't get as many chips on that table". Apparently it was worth it to him to lose twice as fast, as long as he got to make bets with 50 cent chips instead of dollar chips.
As for 6:5, I cannot tell you how often I would see a group of players walk by and the "smart one" of the bunch would say "single deck is the best" or something halfway educated like that. Same at Super Fun 21 for that matter.
Someday, someone will invent a single deck game with liberal rules like Super Fun, yet they will proudly display that "Blackjack once again pays 2 to 3!" and they will lap it up.
M.
the big edge at Keno is not as big as you think. Keno is much slower than the 21 game with ties lose (that adds 8% to the house edge) I would suggest that a Keno game with 30% house edge and 20 decisions an hour would have less vig in terms of true dollars than a blackjack game with 9% vig and 100 decisions an hour.
.. with the only possible exception being that people can get TONS of action per decision in keno, with all these crazy deals where they pick N numbers and buy each possible ticket of n numbers, where n < N. IE they pick 9 numbers and play every possible 6 spot, that's a LOT (504) of bets per decision.
M.
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