Viktor Nacht: You're all fools...

[paranoid android]

> As I often mention to people, Dell (or pick
> a manufacturer) doesn't make the
> "Intel" or "AMD" cpu.
> Nor does it make the "Seagate" or
> "Quantum, Western Digital" etc.
> hard drive. Or the "ATI" video
> card, or the "Lite ON"
> CD-RW/DVD.....

One thing that often seperates a good PC from a bad one is not the parts you mentioned, but the motherboard. It is frequently overlooked when people look at PC specs. If you get a bargain PC price, it may have a low quality motherboard. There are good "ma and pop" shops and bad ones. The big PC manufactures sometimes use the crap motherboards as well though.

There's a couple really good local PC shops in my city, and many bad ones that refuse to take returns, sell used equipment as new, sell stolen equipment, OS's without manuals (i.e. pirated), etc. You need to be careful and know what you're buying and who you're buying from no matter if you buy from Dell or a local shop. Either can burn you.

[paranoid android]

> The problem is that you can't
> just piece together a system from your
> favorite list of components and expect it to
> work for all software.

That seems kind of bizzarre to me. What types of incompatibilies have you seen? I've built several computers myself and never experienced such a thing. My employer (a major video game developer) builds all their own systems as well and we have never had a working system that cannot work with a certain piece of software. If it works it works. The only possible exception being that a video card may not have the capabilities to handle a certain program (usually a game), or it can and they don't have the right driver, or insuffient RAM to run a certain app. But that's not really a problem with the hardware or how it's put together. Nor is it more or less likely to occur with Dell than it is with a homemade system. What problems have you seen?

[bfbagain]

the components that make a good system "good."

I could have listed all of the components, but didn't feel the need, but after your post I saw the error of my ways....

As Parker said, the margins are so small, that the support costs, if a cheap system, read:inferior components are used, will negate all reasonable profits, not to mention the ill will, and the illness -- as in headaches -- that bad systems bring to the table.

Building reliable systems, by default, require high end components. All the cheapo systems, offered by Dell and others, actually use these "inferior" components. And as you pointed out, the mainboard is the main culprit here.

A system builder, as in a mom and pop type shop, or internet system builder for that matter, can build a far superior system, using nothing but high end components, for what Dell charges for an inferior system.

I'm not speaking as a hobbyist, so we'll leave it at that.

Cheap, in and of itself, is not good, period. Buying an inexpensive system doesn't always equate to "cheap" components. But the difference of as little as $50, could make all the difference in the world.

cheers
bfb

[Norm Wattenberger]

Building reliable systems, by default, require high end components. All the cheapo systems, offered by Dell and others, actually use these "inferior" components.

I don't think so. Dell uses Intel motherboards and the same drives in the $475 system as the expensive systems. Their low prices don't come from skimping on parts, they come from an obscene number of sales.

[Norm Wattenberger]

The most common problem is systems shipped with out of date video drivers. Also many times out of date mouse drivers. There have also been strange OS problems. Missing files, incompatible file versions, and hidden programs running in the background. The one off-brand PC I purchased wouldn't run Win2000 Server. The problems are less common than they were five years ago.

[paranoid android]

> The most common problem is systems shipped
> with out of date video drivers. Also many
> times out of date mouse drivers. There have
> also been strange OS problems. Missing
> files, incompatible file versions, and
> hidden programs running in the background.
> The one off-brand PC I purchased wouldn't
> run Win2000 Server. The problems are less
> common than they were five years ago.

But these are all software problems. You had said "you can't just piece together a system from your favorite list of components and expect it to work for all software". There's apparently nothing wrong with the hardware in any of the examples you have given. I'm not arguing against anyone buying their computer from Dell or wherever, I just think your statement was a little misleading. You can in fact just piece together a machine with your favorite list of components and expect it to work with all software for which it meets the required specs to run. Of course you always need a properly installed OS and proper drivers for your hardware.

[Norm Wattenberger]

The problem I had with Win200Server was hardware related. And I've had to throw out lots of cards when moving to newer operating systems. But hardware incompatibilities are less a problem than several years ago.

[bfbagain]

Intel motherboards, contrary to popular expectation (not belief) are not anywhere in the neighborhood of "high end mainboards."

Tyan, MSI, Gigabyte, and Asus, are a few that come to mind off the top of my head, that are vastly superior to Intel mainboards. Actually, they're not on the same planet as to performance and quality.

But to each their own.

It's like your software. Their is no competition. Some things just are.

But I don't get involved in computer "religious" wars. I really don't care what is the best, as long as it's the best. Take Norton Anti-virus for an example. I'm not wed to any software or hardware, as things change. Up to about 4 years ago, Mcafee was "the" anti-virus software. But Norton got it's act together, and overtook them, to become the leading anti-virus company. Now Panda Software holds that title. Next year, it might be Trend Micro, or some other company.

Like I said, things change. I get paid for providing the best, period. So I'm not wed to anything. I have no disagreement with Viktor, for example, regarding Macs. But they screwed up, as I think you pointed out, correctly I might add.

I'm not a fan of Microsoft, but they have won the war, and until someone else can come along and provide effective competition to MS (maybe Linux) we'll have to live with MS, as they are the majority provider of computing solutions to the masses.

And while I'm on my little soapbox, just because AOL is the largest - psuedo - ISP in America, doesn't make them good either.

Dell is a fine company, no doubt, but they are hardly the end all to be all. Thank you very much.

Big is not always better.

cheers
bfb

[Norm Wattenberger]

that there are better motherboard manufacturers if you are piecing together your own system. I have used ASUS. But, disagree that Intel motherboards are cheapo components that cause service problems.

I am also glad that businesses nip away at attempts by Intel, Microsoft & large PC makers to fully dominate the market. But for their own sake, I don't advise people to join the rebels.

Small is not always better.

[Sun Runner]

I don't fully agree with Norm; but if you are going to patronize the local guys you had for sure better find a good one.

But to your point .. what really is the difference if you go to a local guy and he screws in all the good compatabile stuff and then loads a bunch of bad software? The end result is the same.

Norm still ends up with the same problem; a computer that dosen't work and someone thinking it's CV's fault.

[Sun Runner]

> I'm not a fan of Microsoft, but they have
> won the war, and until someone else can come
> along and provide effective competition to
> MS (maybe Linux) we'll have to live with MS,
> as they are the majority provider of
> computing solutions to the masses.

.. and flanging up my earlier positions on MS.

MS may not have won the war, as Parker is quick to point out, but they certainly have everyone else down and are stepping on their neck.

And if your not just a little bit geeky, straying to far off the reservation will eventually make you sorry you did.

[Parker]

> And if your not just a little bit geeky,
> straying to far off the reservation will
> eventually make you sorry you did.

Or, you might be pleasantly surprised, and perhaps even end up learning something. Nobody was born a computer geek.

[Parker]

> that there are better motherboard
> manufacturers if you are piecing together
> your own system. I have used ASUS. But,
> disagree that Intel motherboards are cheapo
> components that cause service problems.

I'd put the Intel MB's right in the middle; they're neither bargain-basement nor high-end. Of course, I usually build systems with AMD CPU's, so Intel MB's are not an option.

> I am also glad that businesses nip away at
> attempts by Intel, Microsoft & large PC
> makers to fully dominate the market. But for
> their own sake, I don't advise people to
> join the rebels.

> Small is not always better.

Nope. :-)

It's like anything else. You must do a little homework and find a reputable dealer. Also, someone whose only criteria is price, that is, someone who insists on buying the absolute cheapest product available, will probably not be satisified with the results.