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Thread: Viktor Nacht: You're all fools...

  1. #1
    Viktor Nacht
    Guest

    Viktor Nacht: You're all fools...

    for ignoring the most powerful, secure, and easy-to-use OS in the world: Apple Macintosh OS X.

    http://www.apple.com/macosx/overview/

    It takes the best of Linux with the speed, stability, and security of a Unix subsystem (in this case a variant of *BSD Unix), and merges it with the most beautiful, graceful and easy-to-use GUI that two decades of innovation can afford.

    People who use OS X on the desktop are more productive. Everything just works better. All of the problems people have with Windows don't happen under OS X.

    It runs all Mac programs (aka Cocoa), and it's a non-secret that MS Office OS X is superior technology to the PC version (www.mactopia.com). It runs all Unix programs (command line, X11, KDE, etc.), so you can also run all of the open office programs, Apache, PHP, perl, etc. It runs all PC programs (emulated), often almost as fast as a similar speed PCs (it helps that emulator is now programmed by Microsoft). All of Norm's software runs great.

    To be fair, however, people who use OS X also end a lot poorer than your hardcore Linux user. Which is why we run all of our servers under Linux. The Unix that OS X is built on is open source (called the Darwin Project), but to get the full Mac OS you need to purchase Panther, which will you around $150, and of course Macs are the most expensive PCs on the market. It'll be $2K to get the entry level G5.

    However, your return on investment as a desktop machine is well beyond any PC. When you buy a PC, you also buying hundreds of hours of frustration of the life of the machine. The time you spend either protecting your machine, or fighting the damage that ensures when worm or virus slips through, makes PCs far more expensive.

    If you're at all open to change, look at an Apple before Linux. It's like running a Mac, Linux, and PC on the exact same machine.

    Good Cards,

    V

    p.s. For the sake of the technical purists out there, it should be noted that Linux and Unix work and look very similar, but are different. Linux is an open source initiative to replicate a free *nix OS, while Unix proper is derived from a Bell Labs project from the 60s (I think, I may be off), and usually comes with various license restrictions, except for the few projects out there with open source versions of Unix proper.


  2. #2
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: A fool and his money . . .

    > If you're at all open to change, look at an
    > Apple before Linux. It's like running a Mac,
    > Linux, and PC on the exact same machine.

    This is silly. What if you don't like the Mac and/or the Mac OS? You're still out two large or more.

    I'm not saying that Macs aren't excellent equipment or that Mac OS X isn't a fine operating system. They are and it is. But for that kind of money, they/it had damn well better be.

    Anyone who is unhappy with Windows obviously already has a PC. You can download a Linux distro ISO, burn a CD, repartition your hard drive, and install Linux. You now have a perfectly functional Linux system and it cost you absolutely nothing! Furthermore, you can still boot Windows if you decide that Linux isn't your cup of tea.

    Or even simpler, you can boot one of the Linux "live CD's" that I've mentioned in other posts. This will allow you to play with Linux without changing anything on your computer.

    A Mercedes Benz is a fine automobile. But suppose you could get a car with most of the style, functionality and handling of a Mercedes for free?

    I recently installed Vector Linux (a Slackware-based distro optimized for older equipment) on an old Pentium 133 w/64 MB RAM that I had lying around. A lot of people probably have something similar to this collecting dust in their garage. It won't break any speed records, but it works fine and is perfectly adequate for surfing the web, e-mail, word processing, etc. It didn't cost me $2K (hell, it didn't cost me anything), and it never crashes.

    > p.s. For the sake of the technical purists
    > out there, it should be noted that Linux and
    > Unix work and look very similar, but are
    > different. Linux is an open source
    > initiative to replicate a free *nix OS,
    > while Unix proper is derived from a Bell
    > Labs project from the 60s (I think, I may be
    > off), and usually comes with various license
    > restrictions, except for the few projects
    > out there with open source versions of Unix
    > proper.

    Linux (at least the original Linux kernel) was actually created in 1992 by Linus Torvalds (known to Linux geeks simply as "The One") while he was a student at the University of Helsinki. As you say, he wanted a system he could run on his PC at home that was similar to the Unix systems running on the university's mainframes, but without the licensing restrictions.

    After he created the kernel, he did an unusual thing. Instead of trying to market it, he placed it on the Internet and invited everyone to not only use it, but make suggestions on improving it.

    The rest, as they say, is history.

  3. #3
    Viktor Nacht
    Guest

    Viktor Nacht: Re: A fool and his money . . .

    If you already have a computer and a tight budget, and would rather spend time than money, then Linux is a good option. But you will either need a good geek friend, or a lot of patience. Mind you, this is all in reference to Linux for the desktop. As a server platform, Linux is second to none.

    They key to our argument is the somewhat grey area of cost-of-ownership. The problem is people value their time in different ways and to different degrees.

    The cheapest computer from Dell right now is $500 with a monitor. The cheapest computer from Apple (direct) is $1,300 with a monitor (I forgot about the iMac). And $800 is a lot of money, you're right. And you could get a PC for even less if you can find one without an OS. So the question is, how much do you value your time per hour, and how many hours will you spend trying to figure out your new OS? How many will you spend trying to hunt down esoteric open source projects on Sourceforge to meet all your needs and/or how many hours will you spend protecting or fixing your computer if its a PC? I would argue that for someone purchasing new hardware, OS X will help them work faster and better. They can use Chimp-easy Mac apps, or use open source Unix apps, or buy Virtual PC and run Windows apps. 2 or 3 computers in 1.

    The Mac has a lower CoO vs. PCs according the Gartner group, but there is no hard data vs. Linux. But I believe that, for an average computer user, they'll be more productive and better served by buying a Mac than going to Linux on the desktop.

    Apple has found the best of both worlds: They have an open source project that is the engine on their OS, but they add enough value to the OS in commercial form that I believe is an excellent investment for anyone.

    But if you've got an old PC and a tight pocket book, then slap Linux on it and you'll have yourself a great computer. If you've got some bucks, you'll save time and be more productive, and hence make more money, on a Mac.

    It's all about how you value your time.

    Good Apples,

    V

  4. #4
    Norm Wattenberger
    Guest

    Norm Wattenberger: Funny you should mention

    > The Mac has a lower CoO vs. PCs according
    > the Gartner group, but there is no hard data
    > vs. Linux.

    I was one of the founders of Decision Drivers Inc which did studies on corporate technology purchases for Gartner Group. DDI was purchased from us by Gartner and is now a wholly-owned subsidiary. Our concentration was on mass purchases by companies, not individuals. In those cases, PCs were the clear choice. Although Gartner itself is a large MAC user.

  5. #5
    spineless jellyfish
    Guest

    spineless jellyfish: Re: A fool and his money . . .

    > But if you've got an old PC and a tight
    > pocket book, then slap Linux on it and
    > you'll have yourself a great computer. If
    > you've got some bucks, you'll save time and
    > be more productive, and hence make more
    > money, on a Mac.

    APs, by definition must have patience. The hours of practice in both strategy and counting are significant for what is an uncertain return on the investment. In fact, if you count all the "practice hours" necessary to become an AP along with the hours spent at the BJ tables, the hourly gains are (initially) fairly insignificant unless the initial bankroll is already substantial.

    I like Linux for the same reason I like blackjack.

    1 - The challenge of success
    2 - The search for understanding.

    Maybe I am getting too philisophical, or just projecting, but it seems like the personality of the advantage player is ideally suited to what is required to learn linux "well."

    p.s. My 67 year old mother learned to use my linux laptop quite easily in about 15 minutes (would hate to have her do maintenance though) with KDE.
    The geek factor is only needed when things don't work right.

  6. #6
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: Apples and . . . .

    > If you already have a computer and a tight
    > budget, and would rather spend time than
    > money, then Linux is a good option. But you
    > will either need a good geek friend, or a
    > lot of patience. Mind you, this is all in
    > reference to Linux for the desktop. As a
    > server platform, Linux is second to none.

    Agreed re: server platform. More on the desktop in a moment.

    > They key to our argument is the somewhat
    > grey area of cost-of-ownership. The problem
    > is people value their time in different ways
    > and to different degrees.

    Also agreed.

    > The cheapest computer from Dell right now is
    > $500 with a monitor.

    You can do considerably better than this. There are at least a couple dozen local mom & pop computer stores in the San Diego area, and I would assume that any city of any size has several. They can get someone into a complete low-end system for around $300 or so, along with providing friendly local support.

    I feel very strongly that people should support small local independent businesses whenever possible. They are the backbone of the American economy.

    > The cheapest computer
    > from Apple (direct) is $1,300 with a monitor
    > (I forgot about the iMac). And $800 is a lot
    > of money, you're right. And you could get a
    > PC for even less if you can find one without
    > an OS. So the question is, how much do you
    > value your time per hour, and how many hours
    > will you spend trying to figure out your new
    > OS? How many will you spend trying to hunt
    > down esoteric open source projects on
    > Sourceforge to meet all your needs and/or
    > how many hours will you spend protecting or
    > fixing your computer if its a PC? I would
    > argue that for someone purchasing new
    > hardware, OS X will help them work faster
    > and better. They can use Chimp-easy Mac
    > apps, or use open source Unix apps, or buy
    > Virtual PC and run Windows apps. 2 or 3
    > computers in 1.

    You're a little dated here. Most of what you say was true a few years ago, but to quote Bob Dylan, "Things have changed." Have you actually installed Linspire, Xandros, or Lycoris Linux recently?

    I have. It is about as difficult as installing a Windows security update (something all Windows users should have down cold). All hardware detection and configuration is automatic. You answer a few questions ("What language do you speak?" "What timezone are you in?") supply a couple of passwords, and you're done.

    These distros install a Windows-friendly desktop (some are even designed to look, well, "Redmond-ish"), and a suite of all the common apps (browser, e-mail, word processor, etc.). Most of these distros also provide wizards to connect to the Internet and tutorials to quickly bring the Linux newbie up to speed.

    Furthermore, many of the aforementioned local mom&pop computer shops will be happy to install Linux instead of Windows on your new system -- and knock $100 or so off the price!

    > The Mac has a lower CoO vs. PCs according
    > the Gartner group, but there is no hard data
    > vs. Linux. But I believe that, for an
    > average computer user, they'll be more
    > productive and better served by buying a Mac
    > than going to Linux on the desktop.

    As Norm mentions in his post, we are talking apples & oranges here. Or to be more precise, Apples & Penguins (sorry, couldn't help myself). The study you mention concerns enterprise solutions (aka business apps). Most individual users use their computers for surfing the 'Net, e-mail, and perhaps lightweight graphics and/or multimedia apps. Linux apps of this sort are as solid and user-friendly as their Mac or Windows equivalents.

    I would agree that posting questions on message boards is not an acceptable support option for a business, at least not as the primary means of support.

    I'm a big fan of message boards, though. :-)

    > Apple has found the best of both worlds:
    > They have an open source project that is the
    > engine on their OS, but they add enough
    > value to the OS in commercial form that I
    > believe is an excellent investment for
    > anyone.

    Sounds a lot like the Redhat/Fedora business model to me. :-)

    > But if you've got an old PC and a tight
    > pocket book, then slap Linux on it and
    > you'll have yourself a great computer. If
    > you've got some bucks, you'll save time and
    > be more productive, and hence make more
    > money, on a Mac.

    > It's all about how you value your time.

    Hmmm. . . .

    I can buy a new Mac for $1300 or so, bring it home, plug it in, and be on the Internet in a few moments.

    I can buy a PC with Linux installed from my local mom&pop computer store for about $1K less, bring it home, plug it in, and be on the Internet in a few moments.

    Tough choice. :-)


  7. #7
    Viktor Nacht
    Guest

    Viktor Nacht: Re: Apples and . . . .

    > You can do considerably better than this.
    > There are at least a couple dozen local mom
    > & pop computer stores in the San Diego
    > area, and I would assume that any city of
    > any size has several. They can get someone
    > into a complete low-end system for around
    > $300 or so, along with providing friendly
    > local support.

    Agreed. Locally, you can go to Laboratory computers (http://laboratorycomputers.com/) and get an AMD computer for only a few hundred bucks, which is exactly where the next RGE PC will come from (emulation works great, but we need an autonomous machine for human reasons . Likewise, you can go to MacClinic on Flamingo, and get a Mac for around $350 or up. In fact, if you were to shop there recently, you might now own a lightly worn Viktor Nacht G3.

    The point is,you can get a Mac at any pricepoint and work with a local vendor. MacClinic is literally a mom and pop shop. RGE is a dude and chick shop.

    > I feel very strongly that people should
    > support small local independent businesses
    > whenever possible. They are the backbone of
    > the American economy.

    I agree. See above.

    > You're a little dated here. Most of what you
    > say was true a few years ago, but to quote
    > Bob Dylan, "Things have changed."
    > Have you actually installed Linspire,
    > Xandros, or Lycoris Linux recently?

    Next tim you're over at the Nachtcave I'll give you a tour of what you can do when you have the Mac GUI over Unix. I can't do it justice in a post. No *nix window manager can compare. Having worked with all three OSes on the desktop for 20 years (just as Norm and yourself have similarly done), I can get done more with OS X than any other OS, and that adds up quickly.

    I know, for a fact, that Don would have much more time on his hands if he had a Mac. If he lived closer I'd be more of a missionary on the subject.

    I read an article recently that a PC is attacked, on average, within 7 minutes of being attached to the internet. Oh yeah, the average guy isn't going to have any trouble with that.

    Good Bits,

    V


  8. #8
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: Internet intrusions

    > I read an article recently that a PC is
    > attacked, on average, within 7 minutes of
    > being attached to the internet. Oh yeah, the
    > average guy isn't going to have any trouble
    > with that.

    7 minutes is probably conservative.

    Sometimes I have difficulty convincing an average user that he really needs a firewall, all the latest security updates, AV software, etc. This despite the fact that I'm usually having the conversation subsequent to removing spyware, viruses, etc. from his system. His line of reasoning is usually something like, "With all the millions of people online, why would anybody be interested in my computer?"

    I just pop one of those bootable Linux CD's I have mentioned in other posts into his system, boot up, and run tcpdump. (Viktor knows this, but for the benefit of other readers, tcpdump is a utility that monitors network traffic and displays it on the monitor.)

    It usually only takes a few minutes for the screen to fill with data scrolling by, and the following converation ensues:

    Him: "What's all that stuff?"

    Me: "Network activity. Portscans, mostly."

    Him: "What's a portscan?"

    Me: "Probably someone checking out your system to see if they can get in."

    Him: (long pause, as we watch the lines of data scrolling down the screen) . . . . . . "damn!"

    Firewall, etc. are subsequently installed.

  9. #9
    bfbagain
    Guest

    bfbagain: Internet intrusions & smtp relay hacks

    To my chagrin, about 1 1/2 years ago, I was installing a test server using Red Hat 7. I got called away, and didn't get back until the next day to finish the configuration. While looking at the system, I noticed an extreme amount of network activity and discovered that within minutes of my leaving, my "innocent" red hat box had become a relay server for a spammer in Korea, and it took me three days to remove that specific IP from spam blacklists. Ugh.

    Reminds me of that old Chicago police drama, Hillstreet Blues, where the sargeant says, "Be careful out there, it's a jungle."

    This brand new world of the internet is a very scary place. And the people most vulnerable, are just regular people, who just want to surf the net, get their email, and do a little word processing. Now they have to contend with all the jerks writing browser hacks, spyware, viruses, installing trojans, and generally wreaking havoc on unsuspecting people.

    It's enough to really piss a person off. The term bitch slap comes to mind.

    cheers
    bfb

  10. #10
    Norm Wattenberger
    Guest

    Norm Wattenberger: Re: Apples and worms

    > You can do considerably better than this.
    > There are at least a couple dozen local mom
    > & pop computer stores in the San Diego
    > area, and I would assume that any city of
    > any size has several. They can get someone
    > into a complete low-end system for around
    > $300 or so, along with providing friendly
    > local support.

    I strongly advise against this. I have had dozens of people call me with oddball problems from such purchases. I now start my questions with 'what brand PC.' When I get an answer that it is something put together at a local shop I know I'm in for a long converstaion. Such admissions are often accompanied by an apology and an oath they will never again listen to their brother/friend/in-law.

    As a geek in the IT field for 38 years, I bought a Polywell/AMD for my next to last PC. It was cheap and very powerful. It was in pieces on the floor of my livingroom for two weeks before I finally got it to function. Turns out you had to set the jumpers on the disk drive opposite to the instructions. It now works, but is noisy and sometimes shorts out. For my las PC I went back to Dell. It arrived in one day and worked perfectly when I plugged it in.

    Of course I'm still stuck in geekdom myself. I also ordered an SATA drive (not generally available last year) with it and as soon as I tested the machine, pulled it apart, installed the new drive and reinstalled all the software But at least I knew the machine worked when I got it.

  11. #11
    bfbagain
    Guest

    bfbagain: Wow! In one stroke you've just

    insulted every system builder in the country, if not the world. Now to be fair, I don't think you quite meant it in the way it came across, but I would like to remind you, that the #1 system seller in the world (your revered Dell Computers), was in fact, exactly like who you just criticized.

    As I often mention to people, Dell (or pick a manufacturer) doesn't make the "Intel" or "AMD" cpu. Nor does it make the "Seagate" or "Quantum, Western Digital" etc. hard drive. Or the "ATI" video card, or the "Lite ON" CD-RW/DVD.....

    I think you get the point.

    Putting a system together, with the appropriate service, support and warranties, is what will separate a "good" system, from a bad system. Anyone can get a bad system, and I've seen plenty from Dell, Gateway, HP, Compaq, remember "Packard Bell", and the list goes on and on.

    So I do think that your characterization is a little unfair. But that's me.

    cheers
    bfb

  12. #12
    Norm Wattenberger
    Guest

    Norm Wattenberger: Just speaking from my experience

    When I get a call about an unusual problem and it's from someone with a locally built PC, I have to ask about every piece of the system. Often I need to do the research myself to find the correct drivers on the 'Net or to iron out configuration incompatibilities to get CV to run correctly. The problem is that you can't just piece together a system from your favorite list of components and expect it to work for all software. Large manufacturers like Dell test thousands of pieces of software with every combination of components they sell. Local shops simply don't have the resources.

  13. #13
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: Completely disagree

    > I strongly advise against this. I have had
    > dozens of people call me with oddball
    > problems from such purchases. I now start my
    > questions with 'what brand PC.' When I get
    > an answer that it is something put together
    > at a local shop I know I'm in for a long
    > converstaion. Such admissions are often
    > accompanied by an apology and an oath they
    > will never again listen to their
    > brother/friend/in-law.

    Five years ago I might have agreed with you. Computers were the current Big Thing, and new businesses were popping up all over. Since then, the dot-com bubble has burst, many of these businesses have folded, and the survivors have done so by making their customers happy. These people carefully choose the components that go into their systems and "burn in" the systems before selling them. If a problem does develop, they bend over backwards to make it right.

    > As a geek in the IT field for 38 years, I
    > bought a Polywell/AMD for my next to last
    > PC. It was cheap and very powerful. It was
    > in pieces on the floor of my livingroom for
    > two weeks before I finally got it to
    > function. Turns out you had to set the
    > jumpers on the disk drive opposite to the
    > instructions. It now works, but is noisy and
    > sometimes shorts out.

    I'm sorry you had a bad experience. But why didn't you simply take it back to where you purchased it? At the places I am talking about, they would either make it right or replace it, all the while being very apologetic.

    Profit margins in the computer business are paper-thin, and these places cannot afford to have customers bad-mouthing them.

    > For my las PC I went
    > back to Dell. It arrived in one day and
    > worked perfectly when I plugged it in.

    Nothing wrong with the majors - they just cost more. Dell is one of my two favorite brands for laptops.

    > Of course I'm still stuck in geekdom myself.
    > I also ordered an SATA drive (not generally
    > available last year) with it and as soon as
    > I tested the machine, pulled it apart,
    > installed the new drive and reinstalled all
    > the software But at least I knew the
    > machine worked when I got it.

    Again, it sounds like you either were dealing with an unscrupulous local dealer, or simply did not take advantage of the resources available to you. Before I buy something from a local dealer, I make sure that they have been in business at least 5 years. The place I patronize the most has been in business since 1983.

    You don't survive that long by selling boxes that don't work.

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