I won over $10,000 in a california casino and they forced me to produce i.d. for taxes, even though I did not cash my chips. Is this legal? can they legaly force me to suply them with my i.d, social security number, address and place of work? what can I do about it?
Thanks.
> I won over $10,000 in a california casino
Assuming it was on Indian land ..
.. did you actually 'win' $10K or did you simply accumulate $10K from normal buy-ins and play? If you won $10K, in say a tournament or something similiar, yes, they can request ID for tax purposes. If you simply accumulated $10K, that's another matter.
> and they
> forced me to produce i.d. for taxes, even though I did
> not cash my chips. Is this legal?
I would not think so; but I'm also wondering how it ever got to that stage.
> can they legaly
> force me to suply them with my i.d, social security
> number, address and place of work? what can I do about
> it?
Place of work? What has that got to do with tax reporting?
Legally -some, or all of this, on their part, could sound a little fishy -but like I have always said, any time you are on Indian land the rules can and often do change from the norm and you are helpless, usuually, to do anything about it.
How were you harmed anyway? Are you gonna go talk to the Chief at the Tribal Council meeting and tell them you were unfairly made to reveal your identity? "Next case, please."
If you didn't actually make a profit, and you file your taxes properly, the government paperwork this created should not be a problem for you.
So, legally? I don't think from reading your short paragraph they acted 'legally.' But based on the time, effort, and expected return on the effort to get justice -I'd either not go back or be more careful next time.
CTRs would be required on transactions of $10,000 but they should only apply when cashing in the chips for cash. All the information they requested (except the place of work) would be required. This is not really for tax purposes but for meeting the requirements of the Bank Secrecy Act which deals with money laundering. I think the original poster could refuse to provide the information but then the casino could fill out a Suspicious Activity Report.
As you say, there should be no reporting for tax purposes if he won the money from blackjack from normal play at the table. If you won more than $1200 at Video Poker or slots then a W-2g form would be required but then he wouldn't be cashing chips.
Wildcard posted a link a while ago to an IRS document that has a good explanation of Indian Gaming requirements.
> CTRs would be required on transactions of $10,000 but
> they should only apply when cashing in the chips for
> cash. All the information they requested (except the
> place of work) would be required. This is not really
> for tax purposes but for meeting the requirements of
> the Bank Secrecy Act which deals with money
> laundering. I think the original poster could refuse
> to provide the information but then the casino could
> fill out a Suspicious Activity Report.
> As you say, there should be no reporting for tax
> purposes if he won the money from blackjack from
> normal play at the table. If you won more than $1200
> at Video Poker or slots then a W-2g form would be
> required but then he wouldn't be cashing chips.
> Wildcard posted a link a while ago to an IRS document
> that has a good explanation of Indian Gaming
> requirements.
Thanks for the post - I checked the link you gave. they say that if you are a non resident alien, and you won at blackjack, you do not have to pay or file any form , but citizens and residents should. is this the rule also at vegas?
Look at the flow chart again.
> they say that if .. a non-resident alien .. you won at blackjack you do not have to pay or file any form,
> but citizens and residents should.
First of all, the flow chart begins with 'Customer Wins.' It's impossible to accurately define if a customer is winning or losing in an uncontrolled environment like blackjack. A casino is not obliagted to even try. I've never seen one that did.
(They are obligated to follow the CTR rules.)
To answer your original question ..
Even if you are not a non-resident alien, even if they can define the win amount, if it is from a wagering transaction with odds < 300/1 (blackjack qualifies here) there is no requirement to withhold; period.
BUT EVEN IF if they still persist (in error), you still do not have to provide personal identification. If you do not, they are obligated to withhold income tax (aka 'backup withholding') at the rate, I think, of 20%.
Add'lly, you used the word 'should' pay or file. The government is not into the 'should' concept; their information is very black and white as to what 'must' be done.
So, yea, if you were just playing along one day, winning, losing, and found yourself holding $10K in chips (and your cumm buy-ins and cash-outs that day were for less than that) .. what then?
If you were not trying to cash them, they had no right to harrass you about personal ID, let alone find out where you worked.
In Vegas, Tunica, AC, etc -in this situation -you stand there and politely stand your ground.
On Indian Land, my motto is generally, it's their world and I'm just playing in it.
But you asked what can I do about it?
I'd say, know your rights, don't play where they get trampled on, and unless you have a lot more time, energy, and resources than I do, I'd suck it up and go on.
B*st*rds.
I'm not playing at stakes where I have to worry much about that but I think the rules are essentially the same for Las Vegas. One of the black chippers on the forum might have a better idea how these things work in practice.
Don't forget there are two different issues. The flow chart applies to taxes but not CTRs. Taxes: no withholding or reporting necessary for wins at blackjack (a tournament with an entry fee is a different situation as SR mentioned) or other table games. CTRC (CTR for casinos): If you cash out or buy in for $10,000 or more, regardless of the games you played or where you are from, they are required to fill out the CTRC and ask for your ID and personal information. This is for any transactions totalling $10,000 or more during the casino's 24 hour day which is not the same as a calendar day and they are not supposed to tell you what it is. If you attempt to circumvent the rules, by cashing out $9000 one day and $1000 the other day for instance, that could be considered "structuring" which is also a violation. The casinos can be penalized for not following the rules so they take it very seriously. They are officially encouraged to start collecting information on you once you have reached the $3000 point although there is no form and you could refuse to provide the information.
CTRC go to the treasury department. W-2gs go to the IRS. You shouldn't worry about the CTRCs if you are a foreign resident. There are no tax implications and they have nothing to do with withholdings. You are likely to get into more trouble trying to get around them. The casino would know your name and personal information though.
but it should be fairly obvious if you are cashing out chips that the winnings were from a table game. If you had won a VP jackpot or tournament the forms and withholding would be made at the time of the win. That is one of the reasons most Royal Flush payments are hand pays. There are a few of the carnival table games that have payouts of over 300 to 1. I am not sure how the casinos handle these for tax reporting purposes. I suspect most casinos, Indian or not, would not want to bother customers with tax forms unnecessarily. Bad for business.
You (the player) does not actually have to report the CTR; it is the obligation of the casino alone. You don't even sign anything. As Trapper indicated, you do have to provide your ID and SS#, but if you are playing again the next day and hit that limit, the casino will file one on you without even telling you or asking for your info again. That is, if you are playing with a card or they know that they already have your info. So, don't assume that you are "getting away" with anything because you are not. Regardless, CTRs are just a way of life, have NOTHING to do with taxes, and are not at all a big deal, unless you happen to be playing under a false name or attempt to try the structuring that Trapper mentioned.
Bettie
if you are playing under an alias and the CTR would be under your real name. I guess the other problem would be if you are a US citizen and you are not declaring your gambling income. I would be pretty suprised if the IRS didn't have access to your CTRs for tax purposes.
> if you are playing under an alias and the CTR would be
> under your real name.
Exactly. Very dangerous territory there.
> I would be pretty suprised if
> the IRS didn't have access to your CTRs for tax
> purposes.
Perhaps, but I really think that it only becomes an issue if you start to generate quite a few, espeially in a short period of time. At that point, I think the IRS may become involved because they'll want to take a closer look at your records and see if you are perhaps money laundering. If you file as a pro gambler, maybe they'll brush aside a few, but most likely they'll contact you with questions.
I wonder how the wealthy and celebrities get away with it? If Ben Affleck was tossing around that much money, do you really think he's likely to give a casino his private SS#?
Bettie
> thanks everyone. i guess there is not much i can do, and just hope nobody will knoock at 2 am because i played blackjack..
> i guess there is not much i can do,
> and just hope nobody will knock at 2 am because i played blackjack.
They won't; don't sweat it. Since that casino already has your personal ID, there is really no reason to stay away. If they are your local spot to play, I suppose you might want to be nice and friendly to them. If they are not, and since they got your info, I'd go back and hit them as hard and as often as I could until they got sick of you and throw you out. The fact they got your personal info this way does piss me off.
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