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Thread: Eric: First Encounter with Another Counter

  1. #14
    Mr. Lee
    Guest

    Mr. Lee: Re: First Encounter with Another Counter

    > I have found that it is very rare to encounter other
    > counters. On the few occasions when I have spotted
    > them, we would usually just keep are cool and continue
    > playing as if the other was not there. The only thing
    > that concerned me was if our bets would begin to go up
    > in unison, we might draw a little heat.

    > The strangest encounter was in my early days when a
    > dealer at a red table asked me what system I was
    > using. Instead of getting be barred from the joined,
    > he discussed game theory, related his experience with
    > counting, and even offered advice on myI have mybe once and the guy was like crying cause the shoe went bad. And I think he wong in on me too. I was down a good % of my br and I decided to cutoff track it cause the count went sky high and people came in mid shoe when the rc was like +30 w/ 4 decks left/ I should have just put a bet in that spot but i told him i was playing 2 and the dealer gave it 2 him. Why the hell would he ask me then? I had my top bet out was getting slaughtered and he hits a hard 12 against a 6?I was like what are u doing? Of course the dealer would have busted and he was telling me not to tell him how to play he's been playing longer than i was alive. Somehow I managed to get my money back but it was a nightmare.

  2. #15
    VerdugoJohn
    Guest

    VerdugoJohn: Re: First Encounter with Another Counter

    "I was pissed and stared him down becuase I had waited 2
    hours for that situation and now I couldn't bet it the
    way I wanted to without looking extremely obvious. To
    his credit he played out the shoe then got up and
    never scouted my table again."

    Well, if you are really mad, there is a way to get even with him...assuming you are sure he is a wonger, just watch him out of the corner of your eye...when he wongs in at some other table (he probably watches several) wong into that table with him...you turn him into a involuntary spotter for you---this is not my idea, but that of Kevin Blackwood as he tells in his book "Play Blackjack Like a Pro"...i am not sure I would ever to that, and I offer this to the discussion as a caution to what can happen back at you if you wong's-in on another counter...

    (one other thing to consider is to occupy the available spots when the count rises...)

  3. #16
    Trapper
    Guest

    Trapper: Maybe not

    >I had my top bet out was getting slaughtered and he hits a hard 12 against a 6?I was like what are u doing? Of course the dealer would have busted and he was telling me not to tell him how to play he's been playing longer than i was alive.>

    Why do you think he was a counter? Not many counters would hit 12 against a 6 in a high count.
    Also, the misplays of others at the table has no effect on your EV. Unless you know the exact order of the cards in the remaining deck, you don't know if the card he was dealt would have busted or improved the dealer's hand. This is a common myth.

  4. #17
    Mr. Lee
    Guest

    Mr. Lee: Re: Maybe not

    > Why do you think he was a counter? Not many counters
    > would hit 12 against a 6 in a high count.
    > Also, the misplays of others at the table has no
    > effect on your EV. Unless you know the exact order of
    > the cards in the remaining deck, you don't know if the
    > card he was dealt would have busted or improved the
    > dealer's hand. This is a common myth.

    I think another player was a counter, the old man who hit 12 vs 16 was a ploppy but I should have just put a bet in the circle.
    If there is mid shoe entry then I think wonging is what you have to do.

  5. #18
    Trapper
    Guest

    Trapper: My point was

    > I think another player was a counter, the old man who
    > hit 12 vs 16 ....

    the old man was wrong to hit 12 versus 6 in a high count - it will cost him money. You were wrong to argue with him about it - his play has no effect on your EV.

  6. #19
    ToAnyOne
    Guest

    ToAnyOne: Just to be nitpicking ...

    His play does have an affect on your EV, since in high counts, there is greater probability of getting a high card; hence he is eating the cards that you desire.
    Now if he stood on a A5 v. 6, that would be great, it would increase your EV.

  7. #20
    Trapper
    Guest

    Trapper: Yes but ...

    > His play does have an affect on your EV, since in high
    > counts, there is greater probability of getting a high
    > card; hence he is eating the cards that you desire.
    > Now if he stood on a A5 v. 6, that would be great, it
    > would increase your EV.

    Conversely, when he hits his 12 versus 6 on low counts there is a greater probability that he is eating the low cards that you don't desire and helping you out. As you point out with your example of standing on A5 versus 6, poor play by other players has unpredictable effects that probably even out in the end. The original poster was repeating the myth that other players will affect your outcome by taking the dealer's bust card. It seems to be a widely held belief even among experienced players (and some counters). There are enough things to be concerned with at the table that you don't need to add concern about how others play.

  8. #21
    Mr. Lee
    Guest

    Mr. Lee: Re: Yes but ...

    > Conversely, when he hits his 12 versus 6 on low counts
    > there is a greater probability that he is eating the
    > low cards that you don't desire and helping you out.
    > As you point out with your example of standing on A5
    > versus 6, poor play by other players has unpredictable
    > effects that probably even out in the end. The
    > original poster was repeating the myth that other
    > players will affect your outcome by taking the
    > dealer's bust card. It seems to be a widely held
    > belief even among experienced players (and some
    > counters). There are enough things to be concerned
    > with at the table that you don't need to add concern
    > about how others play.

    I'm saying that in a very high count a wonger came in and an old man who asked me if he could play and I said no. He wanted to play the spot next to me and the dealer gave it to him. I had a max bet up and the dealer would have busted but he hit the 12 vs. 16. I don't want to argue about this but when somebody comes in mid shoe in a very high count and burns more cards it's a lose, lose situation. And also if somebody burns cards when you have a small bet up that's equal when you have 10-15x that and there is no -or neutral count because he came in your game? He asked me, I said no and he still wants to play? I should have attacked him.

  9. #22
    AutomaticMonkey
    Guest

    AutomaticMonkey: Eating more cards does indeed make a difference

    It's more obvious in a DD game with a cut card because every card drawn decreases the probability you will get another round. When the count is low it's a good thing, when the count is high it's a bad thing. That's why Wonging in/out does hurt the other players at the table. But on the other hand, a counter playing all at the table has a slight beneficial effect for the other players, because we draw more cards when the count is low and fewer when it's high.

    > I'm saying that in a very high count a wonger came in
    > and an old man who asked me if he could play and I
    > said no. He wanted to play the spot next to me and the
    > dealer gave it to him. I had a max bet up and the
    > dealer would have busted but he hit the 12 vs. 16. I
    > don't want to argue about this but when somebody comes
    > in mid shoe in a very high count and burns more cards
    > it's a lose, lose situation. And also if somebody
    > burns cards when you have a small bet up that's equal
    > when you have 10-15x that and there is no -or neutral
    > count because he came in your game? He asked me, I
    > said no and he still wants to play? I should have
    > attacked him.

  10. #23
    PunkEye
    Guest

    PunkEye: Re: First Encounter with Another Counter

    Wonging shoes is my signature procedure. And I don't pay attention to the caliber of players at the table. I could care less. All that interests me is if the count is up or not. Another thing; none of the Blackjack books I have read ever make mention of this kind of behaviour and I would not follow that advice anyway. If this annoys anyone, try to get over it.

  11. #24
    Trapper
    Guest

    Trapper: You have no control over the play of other players

    > I'm saying that in a very high count a wonger came in
    > and an old man who asked me if he could play and I
    > said no. He wanted to play the spot next to me and the
    > dealer gave it to him.

    Rude maybe but as long as as there no rule against mid shoe entry he had every right to play. Jumping in to decks mid shoe is how many of the members of this board make their money at blackjack. I'm guessing that not all of them asks for permission.

    > dealer would have busted but he hit the 12 vs. 16.

    My point was that you have no way of knowing if the old man's hit card was going to help the dealer's hand or bust it. You had some information about the composition of the remaining deck but not the order of the cards to be dealt.

    > it's a lose, lose situation. And also if somebody
    > burns cards when you have a small bet up that's equal
    > when you have 10-15x that and there is no -or neutral
    > count because he came in your game?

    I don't doubt it was frustrating to have someone jump in on your high count but other players come and go. Sometimes they jump in during a high count. Most of the time they jump in during a low count (wongers excluded). You have no real control of the situation short of playing only games with no mid shoe entry. In the end it all probably evens out. In the world of card counting only the long term matters.

    He asked me, I
    > said no and he still wants to play? I should have
    > attacked him.

    Attacking old men for their lack of knowledge of basic strategy could be bad for longevity.

  12. #25
    Mr. Lee
    Guest

    Mr. Lee: Re: You have no control over the play of other players

    > Rude maybe but as long as as there no rule against mid
    > shoe entry he had every right to play. Jumping in to
    > decks mid shoe is how many of the members of this
    > board make their money at blackjack. I'm guessing that
    > not all of them asks for permission.

    > My point was that you have no way of knowing if the
    > old man's hit card was going to help the dealer's hand
    > or bust it. You had some information about the
    > composition of the remaining deck but not the order of
    > the cards to be dealt.

    > I don't doubt it was frustrating to have someone jump
    > in on your high count but other players come and go.
    > Sometimes they jump in during a high count. Most of
    > the time they jump in during a low count (wongers
    > excluded). You have no real control of the situation
    > short of playing only games with no mid shoe entry. In
    > the end it all probably evens out. In the world of
    > card counting only the long term matters.

    > He asked me, I

    > Attacking old men for their lack of knowledge of basic
    > strategy could be bad for longevity.

    I hear you, next time I'll just put a bet in the circle beore the other guy. Anyway, I was playing for a very long time and exhausted, counting shoes can get tiring when u do it for more than a few hours. The old man I was talking about also complained about how much money he lost and that really hurt me more when the guy took the bust card. You are right in the sense that even in a high count they can help you by taking a card that they shouldn't but who hits 12 vs. 6? And when i kind of freaked because the shoe was going bad he had nerve to tell me don't tell me how to play I have been playing this longer than you have been born. Well, it didn't help me or him. I'm glad I got my money back that really was the shoe from hell.

  13. #26
    Wolverine
    Guest

    Wolverine: 12 v 6

    I like to DOUBLE hard 12 v 6 to help cement my "moron" status with the ploppies, the floor, and the dealers. Of course, it is with a minimum bet out and a sufficiently negative count (there is an index to hit a 12 vs 6).

    Mr. Lee, please don't live in "Shoulda-land." The cards will come out as they come out. What players do at the table both help and hurt. The emotions of getting hurt run deeper than the emotions of getting help. Learn to accept the fact that other player's actions are meaningless IN THE LONG RUN.

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