3cardmonty: reno trip report

[3cardmonty]

Just got back from Reno and thought I'd share some info. First off, I only spread $5-50 so all of this only applies to other low stakes counters, as I have no idea how much heat higher stakes players would get at these same places. Also, I didn't play anywhere that didn't have DA2 single deck, since I figured somewhere in town there's always going to be a DA2 heads up game.

Atlantis was great. Busy enough late into the night so that I wasn't too conspicuous, but enough tables open that I could almost always find a heads up game. I played here for about 8 hours straight one night. Wasn't doing too well though, I'm sure I would have caught more heat if I'd been winning more. At one point the count went to +7 after the first hand I played against a particular dealer. I jumped from $5 to $40 and he yelled out "card counter!" I laughed nervously but nobody seemed to take any notice. The count continued to climb. After a couple more hands he said "you're pretty well loaded up now, aren't you?" I asked what he meant and he explained that all four aces were left along with a ton of face cards and no fives with 3 hands left to play. I tried to play it dumb like, "oh you don't say." After the round I commented on it being a good shoe and he said he would have spread to 2 hands. Before anyone ever talks shit about dealers again just remember this guy. Gave me the same pen deck after deck no matter what the count.

Same story with Boomtown, hours and hours of heads up play with no heat. Again though, I lost a LOT right off the bat, must have looked like a ploppy to them. Doubled 10 vs 10 like 3 or 4 times in the first hour (KO called for it) and it probably bought me lots of cover, especially since I lost every time. One dealer here told me to take insurance after I'd declined (he had it), and refused to give me even money on a natural after I asked for it (he didn't have it). Unbelievable. The pit boss started getting interested after I made most of my money back and I left after he made the phone call.

Rail City I was backed off after about 20 minutes, the problem was I was the only player in the whole place.

Silver Club was okay, a little too dead to just coast by unnoticed.

Western Village was great, deep pen, no heat, even when there was only 1 or 2 other players.

I went to the Alamo Travel Center because they have LS on single deck, which is ridiculous. Only a couple of tables though. Played for about 20 mins alone or with one other player before the table was overrun with ploppies. Came back the next day just as they were opening a third table and played heads up but the dealer was consistently preferentially shuffling. I'd stick a big bet out with like 2/3 of the deck to go and she'd just dump it and start a new deck.

After being up $600+ after one night I ended the trip down $100+, which was actually a decent comeback from a disastrous second day where I lost about $1000 (my bankroll was about $2000 to begin with). I'm sure it's naive, but it disturbs me that after so many hours (about 30) under such optimal conditions I could come out behind. I think I've just been having a lot of positive variances since I started counting about 8 months ago (maybe 60 hours of play total before this trip?)--I've made over $3000 playing mostly double deck, often with several other players, and with my spread (I've also done $10-100 on a few occassions) I have a feeling that's way over EV.

Which leads me to a question about tipping. I was wondering if someone would be kind enough to run a sim for me so I could figure out the effects on my EV of betting a dollar for the dealer every time I bet 5 or more units of $5, using KO, with no ceiling (+6=7 units, +7=8 units and so on), single deck, DA2, heads up 80% of the time, 2-on-1 20%. Also any advice on my style of play would be much appreciated. Obviously I'm not very advanced, and I'll take all the help I can get. Thanks a lot.

[LVBear584]

With red chip play, any tipping is too much tipping. There is no need for it.

[Tom Kervin]

> With red chip play, any tipping is too
> much tipping. There is no need for it.

If you tip at a restaurant for good service, you should tip at the tables. Just good manners.

Good Luck!

[LVBear584]

Pref shuffling, yelling "checks play", what?

An honest dealer cannot do anything to influence the game that would increase a red chip player's EV above what would be wasted on tipping.

Tipping is a mistake made by many low-level players. It can easily turn a winning player into a losing one. The margin at red chip play is just too low to be giving any of the meager profits away.

[Ouchez]

> Pref shuffling, yelling "checks
> play", what?

> An honest dealer cannot do anything to
> influence the game that would increase a red
> chip player's EV above what would be wasted
> on tipping.

> Tipping is a mistake made by many low-level
> players. It can easily turn a winning player
> into a losing one. The margin at red chip
> play is just too low to be giving any of the
> meager profits away.

tip. There are many kinds of "service" one can receive. Do not tip if you receive no "service" or if you are losing.

To just say a flat "NO" to tipping is a mistake.

[Wildcard]

> With red chip play, any tipping is too
> much tipping. There is no need for it.

I agree at the red chip level. I play green to low black. If I have a nice run, if the dealer is trying to make the game pleasant, and if the mood strikes me, I'll place a red out for the dealer from time to time. If during the tip hand I have a DD, I also increase the tip.

However, if I don't hear a "thanks", "thank you" or some acknowledgement of my generosity, and only here the banging of my toke on the chip box to signal it's a tip, I do not tip again during that session, I don't care if I have a CTR-C to fill out, no more tips. Case closed!!

I also don't tolerate tip hustlers, and will purposely not tip, nor do I tip if the dealer brought his/her personal problems to the table, or seems to have some attitude. I make it an effort to move quickly and enjoy the moment. I don't enter a casino to have a stranger sour my gaming experience, I am quite capable of doing that all by myself.

It is not my problem to solve if the dealer's are paid minimum wage and rely upon tokes to put bread on their tables. I have yet to see anyone hold a gun to a dealer's head and make them deal.

Tipping should only be done occassionally, and not as a course of "must do" every few hands. I don't sit down to get hustled, and I have yet to see anyone on the other side of the table give me back a dime when I've had a losing session, all I've ever heard was, "better luck".

[bjcounter2002]

> With red chip play, any tipping is too
> much tipping. There is no need for it.

This issue will be debated forever among counters. I can tell you I typically tip mainly based on if the dealer is helping me. If I get good pen, I'll usually tip win or lose. But I have to admit, it often doesnt do much good. I play in an area where dealers are spoiled and keep their own tips. However, they know that they also control where the cut card goes in. I tipped in this particular store heavily. About 1/3 of my EV, in the neighborhood of $25 an hour, win or lose. But for some of these spoiled flunkies, it wasnt enough. They still went and ratted me out to management as a counter. I wish I could go without tipping, but I always seem to break down and tip. I think playing at the red level, tipping isnt probably necessary unless youre the only player at the table. In that case, you should tip mimimally to keep the dealer "interested" and itll be made up with the extra hands/hour you'll be getting.

[Mya]

There are a few things you are doing when you tip. First off, the dealer's base wage is only 25% of what he/she makes. So much like getting a beer poured for you from a bartender, you should tip. 2nd, As a dealer I watch my tip bettors for inaccuracy in basic strategy, or counters for simply not paying attention and hitting by accident after a long day. I can speed the game up for non-tippers/counters that would make the count very challenging. And if there is a table dispute over a call, I will most likely side with the tip bettor, and most likely not side with the bettor whom is not tipping.

[Ouchez]

> There are a few things you are doing when
> you tip. First off, the dealer's base wage
> is only 25% of what he/she makes. So much
> like getting a beer poured for you from a
> bartender, you should tip. 2nd, As a dealer
> I watch my tip bettors for inaccuracy in
> basic strategy, or counters for simply not
> paying attention and hitting by accident
> after a long day. I can speed the game up
> for non-tippers/counters that would make the
> count very challenging. And if there is a
> table dispute over a call, I will most
> likely side with the tip bettor, and most
> likely not side with the bettor whom is not
> tipping.

see, you do, can, and will provide a service, I can dig that!

Regards,
Ouchez.

[3cardmonty]

I'm a dealer too, which is what makes this whole tipping question such a conundrum for me. The general consensus in the counting community seems to be that a red chip-level counter can't afford to tip hardly anything without turning his game into a negative expectation one. But as a dealer, I couldn't live with myself if I didn't tip, because I know how much of my paycheck depends on tips.

I've always thought it's kind of strange that dealing is a tipping occupation. We have nothing to do with whether you win or lose, and yet when you win you're supposed to tip us, even though everyone loses eventually. So I thought the solution was to tip whether I won or lost, and even though I'm up $2000 since I started counting last year, I strongly suspect I've been playing a losing game because of my tipping. I guess in the end, dealers work in the service industry, so if you're happy with your service you should tip.

Incidentally I don't find that speeding up the game makes it much more difficult to count, especially the games I play which are mostly heads-up pitch games. And even if you're not playing heads-up you still have to wait for the ploppies to agonize over their stiffs and unless you're sitting at first you've got plenty of time to do the count.

I'd like to know if there's any other dealers out there who count. Have you ever gotten in trouble at work for being backed off/barred? I work in an Indian casino and was told I could lose my gaming license. Is it any different in Vegas or other places?

> There are a few things you are doing when
> you tip. First off, the dealer's base wage
> is only 25% of what he/she makes. So much
> like getting a beer poured for you from a
> bartender, you should tip. 2nd, As a dealer
> I watch my tip bettors for inaccuracy in
> basic strategy, or counters for simply not
> paying attention and hitting by accident
> after a long day. I can speed the game up
> for non-tippers/counters that would make the
> count very challenging. And if there is a
> table dispute over a call, I will most
> likely side with the tip bettor, and most
> likely not side with the bettor whom is not
> tipping.

[Ouchez]

> I'm a dealer too, which is what makes this
> whole tipping question such a conundrum for
> me. The general consensus in the counting
> community seems to be that a red chip-level
> counter can't afford to tip hardly anything
> without turning his game into a negative
> expectation one. But as a dealer, I couldn't
> live with myself if I didn't tip, because I
> know how much of my paycheck depends on
> tips.

> I've always thought it's kind of strange
> that dealing is a tipping occupation. We
> have nothing to do with whether you win or
> lose, and yet when you win you're supposed
> to tip us, even though everyone loses
> eventually. So I thought the solution was to
> tip whether I won or lost, and even though
> I'm up $2000 since I started counting last
> year, I strongly suspect I've been playing a
> losing game because of my tipping. I guess
> in the end, dealers work in the service
> industry, so if you're happy with your
> service you should tip.

> Incidentally I don't find that speeding up
> the game makes it much more difficult to
> count, especially the games I play which are
> mostly heads-up pitch games. And even if
> you're not playing heads-up you still have
> to wait for the ploppies to agonize over
> their stiffs and unless you're sitting at
> first you've got plenty of time to do the
> count.

> I'd like to know if there's any other
> dealers out there who count. Have you ever
> gotten in trouble at work for being backed
> off/barred? I work in an Indian casino and
> was told I could lose my gaming license. Is
> it any different in Vegas or other places?

by Indian casino workers that if they are caught counting they can lose their license. I view that as Bulls%^& as you are breaking no laws, except the casino WANTS you to think counting, advantage play is evil and illegal.

As to tipping, I am a big tipper to the dealer that provides me with something of value. To tip just for tipping sake is not for me, f#@* that horse S***!

If you do not know how to get the tips without being a tip hustler, which I find disgusting, then you had best pay attention to those *great* dealers that do bring in tips for all the dead head dealers!

Thanks for posting,
Ouch/ez.

[Parker]

> I can speed the game up
> for non-tippers/counters that would make the
> count very challenging.

Oh, really?

This would certainly strike fear in the hearts of all the counters I know.

;-)

[onetoomany]

I don't think you can deal additional cards to me until after I've signalled "hit" and you can't pass me by until I've signalled "stand" ?? So the player has some control over speed of the game, yes? And if I keep the count as the cards come out, you can pick them up as quickly as you want, I've already gotten the count for that round.

> I can speed the game up
> for non-tippers/counters that would make the
> count very challenging.